Could America have used heavy tanks?

[Soren]

Glen,

Don't you want to understand, is that it ?? Why else do you ignore the facts ?

Do you understand the importance of BC ?

Just stop it now glen, you're wrong and it has been proven time and time again.

The German penetration figures you present were the results against 260 BHN RHA plates laid back 30 degree's from vertical, while the Soviet figures are against completely vertical plates (90 degree's).

In short the 122mm D-25T will NOT penetrate 122mm of 30 degree sloped armor at 2,000m. The 122mm D-25T's penetration performance at 2km is 105mm of 220 BHN RHA armor laid back 30 degrees, and this is low quality armor.

When its comes to testing the Soviets were never very thurough..

The case is closed!

[glen]

α=30

PzGr.39 / 43 ( APCBC)
weight velocity 100 m 500 m 1000 m 1500 m 2000 m
10.2 kg 1000 m/s 202 mm 185mm 165mm 148mm 132mm

Soren, at last but not least, I know your opinion well: German target plates and standard are the best in the world, OK, let's double the penetration of kwk43, would you be satisfied?

α=0

PzGr.39 / 43 ( APCBC)
weight velocity 100 m 500 m 1000 m 1500 m 2000 m
10.2 kg 1000 m/s 404 mm 370mm 330mm 296mm 264mm

It looks really good.

1) penetration of kwk43 decrease 40mm every 500m while D25T decreases 10mm-----Kwk43 even decreases faster than D25T.

2) the advantage of kwk43 over d25t is below:

@blank point: 404/162=249%
@500m: 370/152=243%
@1000m:330/142=232%
@1500m:296/132=224%
@2000m:264/122=216%

The advatange of kwk43 DECREASES while range increases. It's the conclusion of Official test of German and Russian.

There must be sth. "wrong" with US test.

It's said that german techinichers deliberately used thick/low quality plates to get higher pen. in order to get through Gestapo's check in late period. US test also applied thick/low quality plates. However, russian used thin-high quality amor to test their guns and that's why russian blank point range pen. is absent!

In my opinion, on high quality plate(K=2400),the correct pen. probably here:

α=0
0m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m
D15T/AP (162mm) 152mm 142mm 132mm 122mm
Kwk43/apcbc (173mm) 154mm 138mm 124mm 110mm

All official test tables are of sencond hand, the first hand pen should be like this:

360m 743m 1048m 1380m 1476m
Kwk** 150mm 140mm 130mm 120mm 110mm

The reason is that it's very unconvenient to produce unregular thickness plate such as 123mm....

There is a convenient methord to calculate Equivalent stoppoing power.

For AP sharp tip shell. De marre function is accurate, for instant D25T's AP shell
For apcbc shell, De marre fuction is NOT accurate any more, however, we can estimate it using Average of De marre's result and staight distant.

For exmaple, 80mm/55 facing 88mm apcbc shell. De marre AP fuction's result is 188mm vertical Equivalent thickness while 80/cos55=140. then the average is (188+140)/2=164mm.

when facing 122mm AP sharp tip shell, the Equivalent thickness can be directly calculted form De Marre's fuction. The result is 166mm which is very close to kwk43's apcbc's.

As you can see, and 650metres distant, the vertical penetration of D25T/ap and kwk43/apcbc are almost same! And their Equivalent thickness on 80mm/55 are almost same, so I can say they will penetrate panther D glacis at almost same distant. Finally, the FACTS has proved my caculation, they can both pen. the glacis @650m!

That's my methord and this is totally Compatible to many battle facts I've knew. For instant, kwk43's apcbc could pen. T34/85 glacis up to 2000m. T34/85, pershing and Tiger's APCR shells are useless facing Panther D's glacis. Pershing's APCR can only pen. Panther G version glacis @ blank point.

If anyone is interested in amor penetration,pls provide me more battle examples.

[Soren]

Glen, please stop making stuff up, you'll get absolutely nowhere by doing so.

It's said that german techinichers deliberately used thick/low quality plates to get higher pen. in order to get through Gestapo's check in late period.

Glen, that is completely untrue and you know it, cause you made it up.

Let me ask you glen, why do you feel the need to come up with these things ? It only ruins your credibility, that's it. Don't you understand that when you make up sh*t like this you're just bound to be caught by people who actually know something on the subject ?

Now that you lie infront of everyone here is one thing, but that you come up with as ridiculous a claim like that above and then expect us to believe it, well that's just downright insulting to everyone no'less to your own intelligence.

Are you seriously trying to fool yourself into believing that the Gestapo were at all involved with these tests and the results ?! Do you even know the role of the Gestapo ?

Come on glen, stop fabricating stuff and get real! The truth shall set you free, seriously!

[glen]

It's said that ......

It's not my opinion, just someone else or my guess. I wonder why german test plates of kwk43 were of so bad quality while kwk36's were good. Probably, it's inevitable to produce thick amor with low quality. US, British and German tests of blank point range were on low-quality plates. Havn't you found that the penetration of 17 pdr APCR was "too much" greater than it's APCBC?

On the contrary, blank point range penetration of Soveit late guns such as D10T/D25T are absent while pen. of early guns(eg. 76mm) are clear. Note that technichers woundn't use different quality plates in one test. Since it's impossible to produce as good quality thick amor as thin ones, russian cancelled the test of close range. However, there is some data of D25T on thick/low quality plates as I posted above. As you can see, D25T's pen. is nearly 220mm@blank piont range. At US test, D25T still can pen. around 200mm at close range. Therefore, the D25T's penetration is probably undervalued by many people, I believe it is very close to kwk43 in penetration and the battle example had proved this: both D25T/ap and kwk43/apcbc can pen. Panther D's glacis @650m. It's the FACT which you usually ignore.

[Soren]

The only one who has been ignoring facts here is you glen.

Anyway this discussion is over, cause you're obviously not interested in the truth.