Could America have won against the rest of the world?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Syscom lets hear US navy in 1939? and in 1945?

I am sure you have it hand.

Its on my computer at home. You will have to wait untill tonight to see the information.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Its on my computer at home. You will have to wait untill tonight to see the information.

I will watch for it.

[renrich]

I have here in my grimy hands my handy dandy "US Warships of WW2" which gives the Distribution of the fleet on Dec 7 1941. Pacific-9 BBs, 3CVs, 13 CAs, 11CLs Atlantic-8 BBs, 4CVs, 1CVE, 5CAs, 8 CLs.

[Lucky13]

I think that before any attacks or invations on the US mainland, the allied would have sided with the Germans to fight the Russians. Or am I wrong??

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

I think that before any attacks or invations on the US mainland, the allied would have sided with the Germans to fight the Russians. Or am I wrong??

I think (and this is definitely an IMHO line here) that you can get a good line on how the Western Euro would handle such a situation by looking at how things were going before WW1. While Communism was (and still is, ideologically) a threat to the West, it was a distant threat. Hitler was closer and the Western Euro did nothing about him until he was too powerful to stop. Not that the US jumped out there and took the lead either. Everybody dropped the ball there.

But going to war with Hitler against Stalin would probably not have happened. A situation much like the US pre-December 7th would've occured. Involved by making weapons for Germany but not physically sending any troops. It would've been hairy for the Western Euro (definitely creating an animal that will probably attack you later in Nazi Germany) but from the perspective of the Westerners, the more those two regimes went at it, the better.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Royal Navy in September 1939:

Battleships 15
Carriers 7
Cruisers 66
Destroyers 184
Submarines 60

Total: 332

Royal Navy August 1945:

Battleships 20
Carriers 65
Cruisers 101
Destroyers 461
Submarines 238

Total: 885

Also Syscom3, remember that Royal Navy had ARMORED aircraft carrier decks, something that USN did NOT have...

Another thing fellow forum travellers, WHY would the "axis" invade the US??

This is a great place to learn!

1939
BB - The RN had 13 BB and 2 BC (Hood had the same armor percentage as their BB, but Renown and Repulse were in no way shape or form BB.

Out of the RN's 7 carriers, Argus, Eagle, Hermes, and Furious combined carried the air complement of a single USN carrier. Courageous and Glorious had semi-decent AC of 48, with only the Ark Royal operating a large complement of 72. None of these had the armored box - which seriously cut down the ability to carry a large air complement, although it did enabe the Illustrious class to absorb horrific punishment. You can judge what is more successful - US carriers operating over 90 A/C, or carrying more armor and operating a group slightly more than half that on the same displacement... The carriers the US put into service carried more combined air power than the RN throughout the entire war - not to mention MUCH more effective aircraft.

The Royal Navy had an excellent cruiser force - large numbers, and although not generally as large as foreign designs, very capable.

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by mkloby

The carriers the US put into service carried more combined air power than the RN throughout the entire war - not to mention MUCH more effective aircraft.

Agree with that last part. What the RNAS went to war with in terms of aircraft was a travesty. The RAF sucked up all the funds and left them as a poor relation.

[renrich]

The RN had a large cruiser force and well manned but her cruisers had not the range of US cruisers, not by half, because of outmoded boiler design and their AA fire control was ineffective. On average her cruisers were not as well armed or armored as their US counterparts. As I recall one of the Leander class was sunk by a German armed merchant cruiser. Was it Sydney?

[Soren]

LoL Syscom3, your pride blinds you so terribly !

Originally Posted by Hunter368

No you cleverly dance around saying it actually, kinda like a lawyer or a politian.

What you do say is that Europe owes US graditude for saving it in WW2. Plus you are argueing in this thread which, by using just this title alone shows what you believe (I know you never made it), you believe the USA could of won vs the world, if you didn't believe that you would not be argueing on this thread.

Don't be shy Syscom, admit it....stop walking the fence. You worried you might be proven wrong?

Exactly Hunter.


Now as to why I think the world will force the US to eventually capitulate;

1. Combined Europe & Asia would be ALOT stronger in every military sense than the US could ever be.
2. Who do you think has access to the most & best raw materials and recources ??
3. With no persecution of the jews the Atom bomb would be in the hands of the country which came upon the Idea first - Germany.

Over time this would inevitably force the US to capitulate, large scale invasion or not - an all out war starting in the gap between eastern Europe and America would eventually drain the US of all war resources.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

1. Combined Europe & Asia would be ALOT stronger in every military sense than the US could ever be.

The US had the largest industrial and manufacturing base in the world. magnitudes above that of Europe and Russia.

The fact you include Asia in your calculations is either a lame attempt at humor, or you are so grossly misinformed about actual economic strengths of the combatants in the 30's and 40's, you should not be posting such absurdities and embarressing yourself.

2. Who do you think has access to the most & best raw materials and recources ??

You all so clever man, who never has opened a book on the subject..... The US and Canada were nearly completely self sufficent in natural resources.

3. With no persecution of the jews the Atom bomb would be in the hands of the country which came upon the Idea first - Germany.

Yes, the Nazi's are no longer going to persecute the Jews, in fact, they will invite all of them back to the homeland with a hug and a tear on the cheek.

A more likely scenario is all of the Jewish scientists will get out of Europe and get to the US.

And where do you get this idea that germany had the idea for an atomic bomb first? Same guy who told you the Ta-152 was carrier capable? The simple fact is nuclear weapons (a controlled fission device) had been discussed in academia for a couple of decades and every physisist of the day knew of the concept.

But only the US had the scientific, technical and industrial capacity to make it work.

Over time this would inevitably force the US to capitulate, large scale invasion or not - an all out war starting in the gap between eastern Europe and America would eventually drain the US of all war resources.

We are on the defensive and you have to come to us. You simply didnt have the resources to invade with the required margins to win.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The US had the largest industrial and manufacturing base in the world. magnitudes above that of Europe and Russia.

The fact you include Asia in your calculations is either a lame attempt at humor, or you are so grossly misinformed about actual economic strengths of the combatants in the 30's and 40's, you should not be posting such absurdities and embarressing yourself.

LoL, you're the one who's embarrasing yourself here Syscom3 ! You grossly underestimate the combined industrial power of Europe and Asia !

If you seriously believe that the US could out-produce the rest of the world then you must have licked some kind poisoness frog or something... Europe and Asia combined could produce twice as much - just look at what the USSR did alone.

With Germany, Britain, Japan, USSR, Poland, France, Italy, Czechoslovakia, China, Korea etc etc etc, the US doesn't stand a chance alone.

Sure the US helped alot during WW2 but without the USSR, Britain and the rest of Europe there's no way the US could ever have hoped to wage a successful against Germany.

You all so clever man, who never has opened a book on the subject..... The US and Canada were nearly completely self sufficent in natural resources.

Oh sure they were, but how about when in a war with the rest of the world ?

You certainly think ahead

Yes, the Nazi's are no longer going to persecute the Jews, in fact, they will invite all of them back to the homeland with a hug and a tear on the cheek.

A more likely scenario is all of the Jewish scientists will get out of Europe and get to the US.

And where do you get this idea that germany had the idea for an atomic bomb first? Same guy who told you the Ta-152 was carrier capable? The simple fact is nuclear weapons (a controlled fission device) had been discussed in academia for a couple of decades and every physisist of the day knew of the concept.

But only the US had the scientific, technical and industrial capacity to make it work.

Rubbish !

If an alliance between the Soviet Union (Of which a very large part is Jewish) and Germany was ever going to happen then there'd be no persecution of the Jews, and that means there's no reason for them to leave = A-bomb for the Germans, who nonetheless could've build the first A-bomb years before the US ever did if Hitler had just financed the project.

Poland is also part of the world you know, and if Poland is to ally with Germany then again - NO PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS !

The only reason Hitler went for the jews was as an excuse to start a war anyways...

We are on the defensive and you have to come to us.
You simply didnt have the resources to invade with the required margins to win.

LoL, Russia alone mustered millions upon millions more men than the US, and with the combined technology of the rest of Europe and Asia it would be just a matter of time before the US would have to capitulate.

Another entry point into the US would be South America - resistance in that region would be minimal and Europe and Asia would have plenty of men at their disposal.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by renrich

The RN had a large cruiser force and well manned but her cruisers had not the range of US cruisers, not by half, because of outmoded boiler design and their AA fire control was ineffective. On average her cruisers were not as well armed or armored as their US counterparts. As I recall one of the Leander class was sunk by a German armed merchant cruiser. Was it Sydney?

Ahhh - Kormoran and Sydney duked it out and both were wrecked.

Originally Posted by Soren

The only reason Hitler went for the jews was as an excuse to start a war anyways...

Are you seriously saying that???

[renrich]

No persecution of the Jews? Hmmmm, what world do you live in?

[FLYBOYJ]

This is a very a very hypothetical thread....

I still want to know how an invading army is going to disarm the US civilian population?!?!? And I'd like to see a guess on how many casualties this fairy tale invasion force would take while doing it....

[Hunter368]

Wolverines!!!!