Could America have won against the rest of the world? - Aircraft of World War II

rogthedodge · 05-26-2007, 10:10 PM

Assuming we'd accepted Hitler's peace offer and he'd honoured it, how long could America have stood alone against the might of the the British Empire / Commonwealth, the Greater Germany, Japan, oh and the Italians & French?

The biter bit?

Parmigiano · 05-26-2007, 10:42 PM

You forget the Russians in the picture...

Anyway, there would have been 4 major powers: USA, UK+BE, Nazi+Fascist in rest of Europe and CCCP. Plus Japan that would have been a lesser power, but likely allied with Germany.

Difficult to believe that there would have been a lasting peace, but also difficult to figure out what would have been the opportunity alliances.

US vs Japan in the Pacific area is the most likely short term war in my view, both were still actively trying to expand there.
But then CCCP may had wanted to take his share...
Maybe the fight would have been about control of China, the last big chunk of territory available for easy invasion (= without a powerful army and modern weapons)

syscom3 · 05-26-2007, 10:53 PM

How many decades would it have taken for the rest of the world to build a navy capable of threatening us?

pbfoot · 05-26-2007, 10:57 PM

Somehow I think my neighbourhood would feel the first strike by the US in this scenario and I'd end up with a P painted on my coat picking fruit in California

rogthedodge · 05-26-2007, 11:07 PM

Guys I'm just playing the 'but for us...' game that seems to be popular among some among this community.

It's pure devilment / payback - while remaining polite.

You're correct, of course, I'd forgotten the Russian forces - let's add them to the alliance.

On Navies I think anyone choosing to do some research would find that the UK/German/Italian/French/Japanese/Russian combined fleet would have dwarfed the US fleet in '39 by a considerable factor. - But I'm willing to be proved wrong

rogthedodge · 05-26-2007, 11:22 PM

@ Parmigiano

Thanks for the considered response - of course it's an unlikely alliance but it's purely a hypothetical discussion.

Thanks BTW for reminding me of the brilliance of Douglas Adams - Hotblack Desiato and Norbert Dentresangle still make me chuckle (saw one of the latter's trucks the other day and it made me think of DA)

syscom3 · 05-26-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Somehow I think my neighbourhood would feel the first strike by the US in this scenario and I'd end up with a P painted on my coat picking fruit in California

You mean a "C"

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-27-2007, 06:31 AM

These threads are just getting stupid and out of hand.

Good job syscom for starting all this ****.

Njaco · 05-27-2007, 06:32 AM

Rog, good thread. Am I getting this right? Are you asking individually or if those countries were Allies against the US? I getting the feeling I staring the answer in the face and can't see it.

As far as fleets, UK and USSR would definately have the ships for battle. But if there was a landing on the USA where would it be? I say either east coast, probably NC or SC - objective , Wash DC; or go for the Gulf of Mexico - cut the country in half.

Sys

rogthedodge · 05-27-2007, 07:08 PM

@ Njaco I meant the combined might of all the other powers. My error.

I'd love to debate where this massive fleet would have landed its many forces (4 simultaneous landings?) but even I think it's far too theoretical for this thread. Maybe we could start a 'how would a UK+Empire/German alliance have tackled America ?' thread when things have calmed down a bit - it IS an interesting question.

@ DerAdlerIstGelandet you're right it is stupid and, possibly getting out of hand - feel free to delete the entire thread if you think it too silly. As far as I can see I can't delete the thread myself.

Just trying to demonstrate the stupidity of the 'but for us' type threads and have probably made my point.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-28-2007, 04:49 AM

No I will let it go....

Soundbreaker Welch? · 05-28-2007, 06:02 AM

Would Winston really have gone agains't Roosevelt?

rogthedodge · 05-28-2007, 07:48 AM

It might not have been Churchill.

Before '39 he was seen by many as dangerous warmonger who would only get us into trouble. He was hated by the working classes for his actions in putting down the '26 General Strike

There were elements within the British establishment who advocated a settlement with Hitler (Lord Halifax, foreign secretary (?) for one).

There were others who were possibly even advocates of an alliance (The Duke of Windsor {Edward & Mrs Simpson} admired Hitler, was pictured in nazi uniform, was accused by Churchill of passing info to the Germans, and exiled to Bermuda for the duration - under the guise of being 'Governor').

But for the abdication he would have been head of state in '39.

As we're going to go on with this thread an alliance between the UK and Germany was certainly a possibility. Whether this could have expanded to a UK/Germany/Japan alliance is very debateable. Also there's absolutely no guarantee the Empire would have followed the UK on such a crazy path.

mkloby · 05-28-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaco

As far as fleets, UK and USSR would definately have the ships for battle. But if there was a landing on the USA where would it be? I say either east coast, probably NC or SC - objective , Wash DC; or go for the Gulf of Mexico - cut the country in half.

The only fleet that could have posed a threat to the US is the RN. Of course, in the early years, it was larger than the USN. British naval aviation, however, paled in comparison to the USN/USMC throughout the whole war. The Kriegsmarine surface units were lacking terribly. Italy only had a couple new BB and some CA. A small task force could have swatted the soviets.

This is all assuming that all the fleet units survived transition and there werent mass scuttlings. US construction over the subsequent years was amazing, and would require a heck of a fleet to overcome - in numbers as well as quality - notoriously lacking from many soviet, german, and italian units.

timshatz · 05-28-2007, 10:07 AM

Gotta start by giving this a date. In 1945, the USN ruled the waves with the only viable threat being the British/Commonwealth Navy. The USN had the best Carrier Aircraft and Fleet Train. It could go where it wanted and stay there to fight.

However, in 1939, it is a different story. The US building program had not yet put any major hulls in the water. Only smaller ships (destroyers and such). The Cruisers, Battleships and Aircraft carriers that would make up the Fleets of WW2 were either on the drawing boards or, in some cases, first of classes were being built. Then, the US would've faced a combined fleet that would've overpowered it in a single battle, if the US would fight such a fight. But odds were seriously against the US.

From the European's perspective, they'll want to keep Canada, reinforce bases in the Carribean and cut the US from South American raw materials (Oil, Tin, ect). US Fleet units would be a priority as they would make an invasion much more difficult. Also, US Subs and Sub Bases would be of great importance as they can attack the lines of communications back to Europe making reinforcing very difficult.

For the Pacific, the Japanese (as well as ANZAC, Dutch and other Pacific forces) would focus on removing the US presence from the Far East. After that, they would go with reducing US presence in the Pacific to the West Coast. From the Japenese perspective, it might be wise to start the war with a Suprise Attack on the Panama Canal. That would for the US to fight a two ocean war with whatever assets it had in each ocean.

View Poll Results: How Long could America have lasted?
Immediate capitulation	1	4.76%
Honourable surrender after many heroic defeats	7	33.33%
Fought to a stalemate	8	38.10%
Eventually won	5	23.81%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

05-26-2007, 10:10 PM	#1
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	Could America have won against the rest of the world? Assuming we'd accepted Hitler's peace offer and he'd honoured it, how long could America have stood alone against the might of the the British Empire / Commonwealth, the Greater Germany, Japan, oh and the Italians & French? The biter bit?

05-26-2007, 10:42 PM	#2
Parmigiano Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy Posts: 682	You forget the Russians in the picture... Anyway, there would have been 4 major powers: USA, UK+BE, Nazi+Fascist in rest of Europe and CCCP. Plus Japan that would have been a lesser power, but likely allied with Germany. Difficult to believe that there would have been a lasting peace, but also difficult to figure out what would have been the opportunity alliances. US vs Japan in the Pacific area is the most likely short term war in my view, both were still actively trying to expand there. But then CCCP may had wanted to take his share... Maybe the fight would have been about control of China, the last big chunk of territory available for easy invasion (= without a powerful army and modern weapons) __________________ "God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche, 1882 "Nietzsche too" - God, Aug 25, 1900 He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams Last edited by Parmigiano; 05-26-2007 at 10:45 PM.

05-26-2007, 10:53 PM	#3
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,814	How many decades would it have taken for the rest of the world to build a navy capable of threatening us? __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

05-27-2007, 06:31 AM	#8
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,086	These threads are just getting stupid and out of hand. Good job syscom for starting all this **. __________________ fly boy:**"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

05-26-2007, 10:57 PM	#4
pbfoot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: niagara falls Posts: 5,964	Somehow I think my neighbourhood would feel the first strike by the US in this scenario and I'd end up with a P painted on my coat picking fruit in California

05-26-2007, 11:07 PM	#5
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	Guys I'm just playing the 'but for us...' game that seems to be popular among some among this community. It's pure devilment / payback - while remaining polite. You're correct, of course, I'd forgotten the Russian forces - let's add them to the alliance. On Navies I think anyone choosing to do some research would find that the UK/German/Italian/French/Japanese/Russian combined fleet would have dwarfed the US fleet in '39 by a considerable factor. - But I'm willing to be proved wrong

05-26-2007, 11:22 PM	#6
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	@ Parmigiano Thanks for the considered response - of course it's an unlikely alliance but it's purely a hypothetical discussion. Thanks BTW for reminding me of the brilliance of Douglas Adams - Hotblack Desiato and Norbert Dentresangle still make me chuckle (saw one of the latter's trucks the other day and it made me think of DA)

05-27-2007, 06:32 AM	#9
Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: South Jersey, United States Posts: 11,833	Rog, good thread. Am I getting this right? Are you asking individually or if those countries were Allies against the US? I getting the feeling I staring the answer in the face and can't see it. As far as fleets, UK and USSR would definately have the ships for battle. But if there was a landing on the USA where would it be? I say either east coast, probably NC or SC - objective , Wash DC; or go for the Gulf of Mexico - cut the country in half. Sys __________________ "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!" http://www.njcacoa.org/

05-27-2007, 07:08 PM	#10
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	@ Njaco I meant the combined might of all the other powers. My error. I'd love to debate where this massive fleet would have landed its many forces (4 simultaneous landings?) but even I think it's far too theoretical for this thread. Maybe we could start a 'how would a UK+Empire/German alliance have tackled America ?' thread when things have calmed down a bit - it IS an interesting question. @ DerAdlerIstGelandet you're right it is stupid and, possibly getting out of hand - feel free to delete the entire thread if you think it too silly. As far as I can see I can't delete the thread myself. Just trying to demonstrate the stupidity of the 'but for us' type threads and have probably made my point.

05-28-2007, 04:49 AM	#11
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,086	No I will let it go.... __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

05-28-2007, 06:02 AM	#12
Soundbreaker Welch? Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 1,896	Would Winston really have gone agains't Roosevelt? __________________ "His motor's conked out!" "What's the differance, they're all Nazis!" "Luke, shut up!" "Fear the hook!" "Oh.....I wanna fly." "You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?" "What you doing? Oh Nooooo!"

05-28-2007, 07:48 AM	#13
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	It might not have been Churchill. Before '39 he was seen by many as dangerous warmonger who would only get us into trouble. He was hated by the working classes for his actions in putting down the '26 General Strike There were elements within the British establishment who advocated a settlement with Hitler (Lord Halifax, foreign secretary (?) for one). There were others who were possibly even advocates of an alliance (The Duke of Windsor {Edward & Mrs Simpson} admired Hitler, was pictured in nazi uniform, was accused by Churchill of passing info to the Germans, and exiled to Bermuda for the duration - under the guise of being 'Governor'). But for the abdication he would have been head of state in '39. As we're going to go on with this thread an alliance between the UK and Germany was certainly a possibility. Whether this could have expanded to a UK/Germany/Japan alliance is very debateable. Also there's absolutely no guarantee the Empire would have followed the UK on such a crazy path.

05-28-2007, 10:07 AM	#15
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,820	Gotta start by giving this a date. In 1945, the USN ruled the waves with the only viable threat being the British/Commonwealth Navy. The USN had the best Carrier Aircraft and Fleet Train. It could go where it wanted and stay there to fight. However, in 1939, it is a different story. The US building program had not yet put any major hulls in the water. Only smaller ships (destroyers and such). The Cruisers, Battleships and Aircraft carriers that would make up the Fleets of WW2 were either on the drawing boards or, in some cases, first of classes were being built. Then, the US would've faced a combined fleet that would've overpowered it in a single battle, if the US would fight such a fight. But odds were seriously against the US. From the European's perspective, they'll want to keep Canada, reinforce bases in the Carribean and cut the US from South American raw materials (Oil, Tin, ect). US Fleet units would be a priority as they would make an invasion much more difficult. Also, US Subs and Sub Bases would be of great importance as they can attack the lines of communications back to Europe making reinforcing very difficult. For the Pacific, the Japanese (as well as ANZAC, Dutch and other Pacific forces) would focus on removing the US presence from the Far East. After that, they would go with reducing US presence in the Pacific to the West Coast. From the Japenese perspective, it might be wise to start the war with a Suprise Attack on the Panama Canal. That would for the US to fight a two ocean war with whatever assets it had in each ocean.

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