D-Day - 6th June, 1944.

[syscom3]

The RN and RAF were in a far better position to repel a German invasion of Briain that they were in 1940.

As we discussed in the other thread, there was no way the Germans could have pulled it off.

[Soren]

The RN and RAF were in a far better position to repel a German invasion of Briain that they were in 1940.

And the Germans would have been in a far better position to attack had Hitler just prioritized it, instead of his precious eastern campaign, as Operation Barbarossa could infact afford to wait for just a while.

As we discussed in the other thread, there was no way the Germans could have pulled it off.

With no Operation Barbarossa, you can be sure they could've pulled it off. The eastern front did after-all take up about 80% of the entire German army, a force to be reckoned with.

Had Hitler not made the mistake of believing that he alone could take on the whole world at once, he could've achieved his goal in the end. (That is if he didn't die of his illness before that)

[Gnomey]

Unless they had dedicated landing craft like the allies it wasn't going to succeed, by 1941 the British had recovered from the Battle of France and the resultant Battle of Britain and were ready to face a German invasion. They were more prepared than they were in 1940, so the invasion would of been harder.

Good post pD.

[Jabberwocky]

To sucessfully complete an invasion in 1941, Germany would of had to:


1. Defeat Fighter Command as a defensive force

2. Defeat Bomber Command as an offensive force

3. Eliminate or minimise the Royal Navy Home Fleet as an effective force in the Channel for a period of at least 1 month

4. Create a dedicated naval landing and naval logistics arm

5. Sufficiently decoy British defenses away from the main landing area

6. Deny the British army the ability to acces the landing areas (eliminate rail and road ransport)

7. Breach, capture or destroy the fixed defensive fortifications

8. Sucessfully land at least 30,000 troops and their equipment in the first 24 hours of the invasion

9. Maintain control of the English channel for at least a 1 month period to land sufficient troops and supplies for the campaign


If you look at recent history, the USA and the UK have been the two dominant naval and aviation powers for the last 100 or so years. It took their combined strength and weight of experiance, with complete naval and aerial superiority, to breach a gap in the German defences on D-Day.

As German had neither in 1941, a sucessful invasion of England is unlikey in my opinion. Germany would of needed to treble her naval strength and double her aerial strength just as pre-requisites to ATTEMPT an invasion.

[plan_D]

This has already been discussed, and it was found by reasonable people that an invasion was actually on the brink of impossible. Now, leave my thread alone ...

[syscom3]

yeah, leave his thread alone!!!!!!!



Soren, when it comes to amphibious invasions, the size of your army is dictated by how many can be transported by sea and supplied and maintained in the field.

If Hitler had 30 divisions in France waiting to invade England, but only had enough sea transport to supply two divisions at a time, the size of his army will always be two divisions.

[Udet]

I do not want to "ruin" your thread. Also I do not downplay anything.

It was yourself raising the question here, if the allies were required to make such a massive display of war materiel to make D-day happen, "how can there be people believing Germany could have invaded England in 1940"?

And that very typical style of yours of launching accusations and insults...might get you in serious trouble one day.

[Hunter368]

[quote=PlanD
This is just the start. But I would like to ask, how can anyone argue that the Germans would have succeeded in 1940 when we needed all that naval power to succeed in 1944?[/quote]

It really could not have succeeded with what both powers had available to fight with at the time. UK just had too many weapons to fight with at the time for Germany to be able to take care of them all.

1) RAF Fighter command
2) Bomber Command
3) The big daddy "Royal Navy"

Not to mention the lack of weapons that Germany had at the time. ie a navy that could pull it off or a air force that protect their non-existent navy.

If UK was connected to France by land Germany could of .... well thats a different thread. I will stick to the subject as PlanD has asked.

[syscom3]

Udet, the other thread went into detail how in 1940, the germans were completly unprepared and equipped to launch a major invasion. Their planning was made up of unbelievable assumptions and always assumed best case scenarios.

Their capability of invasion was next to nil in the best of circumstances in 1940 and would have been even worse off in 1941.

As the USN/USMC proved in the Pacific, if youre going to take any beachhead without port facilities, you better have a multitude of specialised amphib ships and lot of them.

The Germans didnt have them and even if they did make a few, they would have been sunk in transit to the channel ports or blown to pieces at the dock.

[syscom3]

Now that we have 61 years to look back and analyze the Normandy invasion, lets hear your thoughts on what the allies should have done differently.

To start with, the allies had far to few battleships and cruisers available for fire support. If I was Admiral, I would double the number of heavy gun ships. Also, I would have some shallow draft "monitors" built with some heavy 8" or 12" guns for direct fire support up close. The debacle at Omaha might have been far less severe if the German pillbox's could have been taken under direct close range fire.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Udet, the other thread went into detail how in 1940, the germans were completly unprepared and equipped to launch a major invasion. Their planning was made up of unbelievable assumptions and always assumed best case scenarios.

Their capability of invasion was next to nil in the best of circumstances in 1940 and would have been even worse off in 1941.

As the USN/USMC proved in the Pacific, if youre going to take any beachhead without port facilities, you better have a multitude of specialised amphib ships and lot of them.

The Germans didnt have them and even if they did make a few, they would have been sunk in transit to the channel ports or blown to pieces at the dock.

Syscom don't forget as Udet pointed out " that German never intented to invade UK really" lol yeh right they never wanted to. Yes they did. They just could not do it.

[syscom3]

Now that we have 61 years to look back and analyze the Normandy invasion, lets hear your thoughts on what the allies should have done differently.

To start with, the allies had far to few battleships and cruisers available for fire support. If I was Admiral, I would double the number of heavy gun ships. Also, I would have some shallow draft "monitors" built with some heavy 8" or 12" guns for direct fire support up close. The debacle at Omaha might have been far less severe if the German pillbox's could have been taken under direct close range fire.

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by Udet

And that very typical style of yours of launching accusations and insults...might get you in serious trouble one day.

You really have no room to talk there, Udet.

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Now that we have 61 years to look back and analyze the Normandy invasion, lets hear your thoughts on what the allies should have done differently.

To start with, the allies had far to few battleships and cruisers available for fire support. If I was Admiral, I would double the number of heavy gun ships. Also, I would have some shallow draft "monitors" built with some heavy 8" or 12" guns for direct fire support up close. The debacle at Omaha might have been far less severe if the German pillbox's could have been taken under direct close range fire.

The Allied fleet at Normandy had the largest array of naval support ever dedicated to an invasion. The USN history of Operation Neptune puts the immediate fire support as "The assault was to be supported by a bombardment force of 7 Battleships, 2 Monitors, 23 Cruisers, 2 Gunboats, 75 Fleet Destroyers, 16 Hunt class destroyers and special bombarding craft.", but notes later that many other ships were detached from their operations for fire support.

The heavy gun support was ordered off at Omaha 0830 for fear of hitting thier own troops. Support responisbilities then fell to the 5" guns on destroyers. With their shallow draft and good speed, they could prowl up and down the beachheads and use their guns to engage enemy batteries. Most USN destroyers on D-Day fired upwards of 500 5" shells. Some fired over 1000.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

The Allied fleet at Normandy had the largest array of naval support ever dedicated to an invasion. The USN history of Operation Neptune puts the immediate fire support as "The assault was to be supported by a bombardment force of 7 Battleships, 2 Monitors, 23 Cruisers, 2 Gunboats, 75 Fleet Destroyers, 16 Hunt class destroyers and special bombarding craft.", but notes later that many other ships were detached from their operations for fire support.

The heavy gun support was ordered off at Omaha 0830 for fear of hitting thier own troops. Support responisbilities then fell to the 5" guns on destroyers. With their shallow draft and good speed, they could prowl up and down the beachheads and use their guns to engage enemy batteries. Most USN destroyers on D-Day fired upwards of 500 5" shells. Some fired over 1000.

Yikes, can you imagine being dug in or sitting in a pill box on the beach and seeing them go up and down shooting like hell. Whether they could knock out your pill box or not it would of been terrifying to see if you were a German.