D-Day - 6th June, 1944.

[Udet]

syscom:

I do agree the possibilities for Germany to carry on with an invasion of Britain in 1940 were marginal to say the least.

The point is -and yes Mr. Hunter368, you can laugh as much as you desire-, there is evidence enough to suggest Germany did not really intend to invade much less occupy the British island.

I do not care if Hitler hired an architect to have his personal palace designed in London once Buckingham got flattened.

First off, what of Germany´s oficial peace offering? Please, tell me of the arguments you have to dismiss this first point off hand.

Hitler´s fundamental obssesion was the soviet union. He wanted to put as much pressure as possible on the British to perhaps force a peace agreement to then switch east as soon as possible.

Occupying England? Whatever the number of divisions necessary to achieve such task, Hitler feared seeing his military getting scattered across Europe. The most concetrated blow was to strike the soviets.

He carried on with what appeared as a feasible venture, an air campaign -Battle of Britain-, which proved of course futile.

It is clear the industrial might of the US, combined with that of the Brits produced the massive armada which stormed the Normandy beaches in 1944.

Conditions for each period were quite different however. The Allies required that kind of massive deployment for they were going to face a tough enemy, that although over stretched had very powerful units in the order of battle (Panzer Lehr, 21 Pz. Div, 12 SS.Pz.Div, 116 Pz. Div, the SS s.Pz.Abt., etc.).

Do not get me wrong mr syscom, this ain´t an issue where I´ll say I am knowledged, but if i recall correctly, even with the massive assault of june 1944, the allies always progressed embarrasingly behind the projected timeframes for advancing in the continent.

Germany, in 1940, in the nearly impossible event of an invasion of England would have faced an entirely different foe: an army which had lost the bulk of its equipment and material in the battle where they had just been battered.


Mr. Evangilder:

I have no room to talk there? So you are suggesting that just like Plan_D does virtually on a daily basis with many members, also I conduct my own rampages insulting people and launching groundless acussations?

Read very well what he said to me there; it was pretty much like "you downplay the fierce defensive effort of the British people". He does not know me to launch such acussation.

Please do not confuse disliking the ideas of someone (disagreeing) with being unnecessarily cyberaggressive and insulting.

Had any member posted the very same comment you just directed to me there, the exact phrase having Plan_D as the receiver, I am sure you can figure out the kind of vocabulary and "attitude" would come from him as response.

[plan_D]

< Just for you, Udet.

That simple rhetorical question at the end of the first post was meant to simply provide some light on the difficulties that Germany would have faced in 1940/1941. I thought it was obvious to the vast majority of people on here that the discussion of Sealion had already been over ... more than once. Not to arouse a discussion about some lame ass punk bitch little Austrian picking his arse while trying to decide on Britain or Russia ...

I think the title of the thread clearly indicates that it's about Operation OVERLORD - but now, any onlooker doesn't know what the f*ck is going on because it seems no one knows how to use the "New Thread" button.

So, feel free to rampage on in this thread ... I'll start a new one ... and maybe you'll all rampage about who's arse smells the best in that one.

[syscom3]

Is that guy on the violin playing "ride of the valkeryie"?

[plan_D]

I don't know ... he could be playin' "Sniff my noggin" for all I care. He's some little yellow dude with a violin ... you can't go wrong.

[CharlesBronson]

A nice link with info about the sluggish performance of the Luftwaffe over the invation front.

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/6june44.htm

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Udet

syscom:

I do agree the possibilities for Germany to carry on with an invasion of Britain in 1940 were marginal to say the least.

The point is -and yes Mr. Hunter368, you can laugh as much as you desire-, there is evidence enough to suggest Germany did not really intend to invade much less occupy the British island.

I do not care if Hitler hired an architect to have his personal palace designed in London once Buckingham got flattened.

First off, what of Germany´s oficial peace offering? Please, tell me of the arguments you have to dismiss this first point off hand.

Hitler´s fundamental obssesion was the soviet union. He wanted to put as much pressure as possible on the British to perhaps force a peace agreement to then switch east as soon as possible.

Occupying England? Whatever the number of divisions necessary to achieve such task, Hitler feared seeing his military getting scattered across Europe. The most concetrated blow was to strike the soviets.

He carried on with what appeared as a feasible venture, an air campaign -Battle of Britain-, which proved of course futile.

It is clear the industrial might of the US, combined with that of the Brits produced the massive armada which stormed the Normandy beaches in 1944.

Conditions for each period were quite different however. The Allies required that kind of massive deployment for they were going to face a tough enemy, that although over stretched had very powerful units in the order of battle (Panzer Lehr, 21 Pz. Div, 12 SS.Pz.Div, 116 Pz. Div, the SS s.Pz.Abt., etc.).

Do not get me wrong mr syscom, this ain´t an issue where I´ll say I am knowledged, but if i recall correctly, even with the massive assault of june 1944, the allies always progressed embarrasingly behind the projected timeframes for advancing in the continent.

Germany, in 1940, in the nearly impossible event of an invasion of England would have faced an entirely different foe: an army which had lost the bulk of its equipment and material in the battle where they had just been battered.


Mr. Evangilder:

I have no room to talk there? So you are suggesting that just like Plan_D does virtually on a daily basis with many members, also I conduct my own rampages insulting people and launching groundless acussations?

Read very well what he said to me there; it was pretty much like "you downplay the fierce defensive effort of the British people". He does not know me to launch such acussation.

Please do not confuse disliking the ideas of someone (disagreeing) with being unnecessarily cyberaggressive and insulting.

Had any member posted the very same comment you just directed to me there, the exact phrase having Plan_D as the receiver, I am sure you can figure out the kind of vocabulary and "attitude" would come from him as response.

Actually Udet, Germany WAS planning to invade England, no matter how you want to slant it. They just couldn't.

Surely, the Kriegsmarine didn't assemble 1300 barges and 300 transports in northen France because they didn't intend to invade England?

The Whermarcht didn't convert 250 tanks for amphibious assault just because they felt like it, did they?

The 6th Army obviously just began training their troops in seaborn landing techniques for no reason.

Hitler really didnt want to invade the UK when he issued Directive 16. After all, all that it says in the second sentence is "I have decided to begin to prepare for, and if necessary carry out, an invasion of England". He wanted to eliminate "Great Britain as a base from which the war against Germany can be fought, and if necessary the island will be occupied"

[Maestro]

... And may be the Blitz on British cities, airfields, radar stations [...] was only for the fun of wasting ammos and losing aircrafts ?

[evangilder]

Originally Posted by Udet

Mr. Evangilder:

I have no room to talk there? So you are suggesting that just like Plan_D does virtually on a daily basis with many members, also I conduct my own rampages insulting people and launching groundless acussations?

Read very well what he said to me there; it was pretty much like "you downplay the fierce defensive effort of the British people". He does not know me to launch such acussation.

Please do not confuse disliking the ideas of someone (disagreeing) with being unnecessarily cyberaggressive and insulting.

Had any member posted the very same comment you just directed to me there, the exact phrase having Plan_D as the receiver, I am sure you can figure out the kind of vocabulary and "attitude" would come from him as response.

I wasn't talking about plan_d, Udet. I was talking about YOU. You can try to deflect all you want, but you have numerous times been insulting and talked down to other members. So don't play holier than thou. If you took a statement that someone said as directed at you and insulting when it did not appear to be then I believe that one with the problem here is you.

The point is that you can't claim moral high ground if there is a dead body in your closet. Capiche?

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Actually Udet, Germany WAS planning to invade England, no matter how you want to slant it. They just couldn't.

Surely, the Kriegsmarine didn't assemble 1300 barges and 300 transports in northen France because they didn't intend to invade England?

The Whermarcht didn't convert 250 tanks for amphibious assault just because they felt like it, did they?

The 6th Army obviously just began training their troops in seaborn landing techniques for no reason.

Hitler really didnt want to invade the UK when he issued Directive 16. After all, all that it says in the second sentence is "I have decided to begin to prepare for, and if necessary carry out, an invasion of England". He wanted to eliminate "Great Britain as a base from which the war against Germany can be fought, and if necessary the island will be occupied"

Jabber this was obviously an elaborate plan only to fool everyone. So was BoB just a plan to fool everyone. Germany never planned to invade Germany ever.

Udet please come on here, Germany 100% planned to invade them IF a negotiated peace could not be worked out. As any person would Hitler planned to win the war with UK with bluff, intimation and negotiated peace talks first. If that didn't happen (which it did not) then he would need to control the air space (he failed as we all know) over UK and send in his invasion fleet (which as was stated already was in ports along France and was not up to the task). Hitler had a plan A (win with talks) and plan B (win with war) and both failed. Be reasonable Hitler did plan to invade UK if talks failed, did he like the idea of invading them ? no Who would of, he knew it was going to costs him dearly even if he could of done it successfully. If you say they did not plan to invade UK give a list of examples for us why you believe this. Maybe like in a new thread would be better as this is off subect here.

[FLYBOYJ]

A picture reveals a 1000 words...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Udet

Mr. Evangilder:

I have no room to talk there? So you are suggesting that just like Plan_D does virtually on a daily basis with many members, also I conduct my own rampages insulting people and launching groundless acussations?

Read very well what he said to me there; it was pretty much like "you downplay the fierce defensive effort of the British people". He does not know me to launch such acussation.

Please do not confuse disliking the ideas of someone (disagreeing) with being unnecessarily cyberaggressive and insulting.

Had any member posted the very same comment you just directed to me there, the exact phrase having Plan_D as the receiver, I am sure you can figure out the kind of vocabulary and "attitude" would come from him as response.

As even said you have no room to talk here. I can show many of your posts were you initiate the insulting. Here are your problems:

1. You talk to people like you are a king and they are a peasant. You talk down to them.

2. Whenever you disagree with someone, you dismiss them as wasting your time.

3. Whenever you do not like what someone says you tell them that there opinions are not worth anything (remember that one, you said that my opinions were not worth anything. What makes you think yours are then).

4. You sly sarcastic remarks are not funny. They do not make you cultured as you think you are. They piss people off.

5. You get backed into a corner and you start throwing insults.

I am sure everyone here will agree with me when I say these things.

That is why people like pD talk the way they do to you. Because they are tired of you saying that they are completely wrong because they believe something else. You tell them that there thoughts are wrong because they are the allied story. Well what if you story is wrong. What if there German story is not the truth.

Basically poeple like pD are tired of the way you talk to them and others and that is why they just straight out dismis eveyrthing you say and throw out insults. It is a taste of your own medicine.

[Udet]

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.


You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

Sorry guys, this was my last comment regarding this issue. Do not want to divert the content of the thread no more. I was just exercising my right to defend myself.


Jabberwocky:

It is not necessary to be sarcastic. I have some 30 photos of the German "assembly" of barges, the motley fleet that would allegedly take the german invasion force across the channel.

Also I have the Hitler´s famous directive.

You think I´ve not come across the evidence you are presenting to make a case?

It´d appear you just want to see the evidence that will make you feel more comfortable.

I will finish this by asking you something -also for you Mr. Hunter368-, are you going to say the following can not dispute your case?

(i) Germany´s official peace offering (made twice: a consistent foreign policy regarding the British empire, which by the way, Hitler admired). Did Hitler ever, EVER, thought of peace with the soviets?

Consistent even with the defeated France: other than assuring it would not fall in British hands, no claims were ever made to the French fleet or France´s african colonies. Did Hitler sent military units to occupy the french territories, say, in Alger or Morocco? I mean, someone as obssesed with conquering more and more, as he has been portrayed, would have sent soldiers, just for the glorious photo. He did not. Concentrated blow against the east. No scatering of my military.

(ii) Hitler´s obssesion with destroying the bolsheviks.

Hitler´s war commenced aiming east. Poland. A barrier standing between Germany and the favorite foe: USSR.

Making the political and military aid operations with nations of eastern europe -and Finland- to gain allies and secure the flanks for the projected war against the soviets (I have several books focused solely on this particular issue, I can recommend you some if you wish).

(iii) As some of you have correctly suggested here, Germany was unfamiliar with seaborne operations. The allies apparently fit in the same category, for their first attempt at Dieppe got completely obliterated.

There is something to be clarified though, unfamiliar, or unexperienced with seaborne operations does not make you a fool. Not even Hitler can be called a fool in 1940.

You think the Germans did not know the Royal Navy existed? Do you think they did not know of the British seamenship?

The German military doctrine was one of armored spearheads in close cooperation of the Luftwaffe´s flying artillery. Do you think they did not rapidly discover it would be close to impossible to get their tanks across the channel with the things they had available?

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Think of this, and I believe it is here where you miss the point:

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

So, if Hitler had in fact been this blood thirsty sod, trying to expand his conquest just for the fun of it, and you have to believe this, he would have sent everything out to attempt the invasion of England in 1940.

Hitler was not a man that would save the blood of his military when it came to meet his expectations, especially when the enemy was the soviet one.

At Stalingrad, a time when issues peaked, he did not care, at all. It is very likely he knew that if his orders were to be carried out the 6th Army would be doomed: he decided to doom the army. Let it be. Period.

So for the alleged "Seelowe", had England really been a plan, he would have ordered Admiral Raeder to bring everything: battlecruisers "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", all the heavy cruisers, the few light cruisers and whatever destroyers available, also the bulk of the U-boat force. I do not recall exactly what was "Bismarck" doing by this months -conducting sea trials if recall correctly- but perhaps also "Bismarck" takes part.

Anf of course, about the entire Luftwaffe.
All the eggs in one basket? Never.

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he knew there could be a possibility for his foreign policy for the west to fail, and have England as an enemy.

Hitler´s alleged plan to invade England was more the product of a sudden undesired circumstance and not one of premeditation and profound desire.

[plan_D]

Calmly discussing the Falklands? Did you even read what he said? Like, I don't know, demanding them back? And you really must not be using any grey matter, you do not want to divert the course of this thread? Look at the title of the thread, what has that got to do with Hitler's invasion of Britain?

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by Udet

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.


You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

Sorry guys, this was my last comment regarding this issue. Do not want to divert the content of the thread no more. I was just exercising my right to defend myself.


Jabberwocky:

It is not necessary to be sarcastic. I have some 30 photos of the German "assembly" of barges, the motley fleet that would allegedly take the german invasion force across the channel.

Also I have the Hitler´s famous directive.

You think I´ve not come across the evidence you are presenting to make a case?

It´d appear you just want to see the evidence that will make you feel more comfortable.

I will finish this by asking you something -also for you Mr. Hunter368-, are you going to say the following can not dispute your case?

(i) Germany´s official peace offering (made twice: a consistent foreign policy regarding the British empire, which by the way, Hitler admired). Did Hitler ever, EVER, thought of peace with the soviets?

Consistent even with the defeated France: other than assuring it would not fall in British hands, no claims were ever made to the French fleet or France´s african colonies. Did Hitler sent military units to occupy the french territories, say, in Alger or Morocco? I mean, someone as obssesed with conquering more and more, as he has been portrayed, would have sent soldiers, just for the glorious photo. He did not. Concentrated blow against the east. No scatering of my military.

(ii) Hitler´s obssesion with destroying the bolsheviks.

Hitler´s war commenced aiming east. Poland. A barrier standing between Germany and the favorite foe: USSR.

Making the political and military aid operations with nations of eastern europe -and Finland- to gain allies and secure the flanks for the projected war against the soviets (I have several books focused solely on this particular issue, I can recommend you some if you wish).

(iii) As some of you have correctly suggested here, Germany was unfamiliar with seaborne operations. The allies apparently fit in the same category, for their first attempt at Dieppe got completely obliterated.

There is something to be clarified though, unfamiliar, or unexperienced with seaborne operations does not make you a fool. Not even Hitler can be called a fool in 1940.

You think the Germans did not know the Royal Navy existed? Do you think they did not know of the British seamenship?

The German military doctrine was one of armored spearheads in close cooperation of the Luftwaffe´s flying artillery. Do you think they did not rapidly discover it would be close to impossible to get their tanks across the channel with the things they had available?

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Think of this, and I believe it is here where you miss the point:

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

So, if Hitler had in fact been this blood thirsty sod, trying to expand his conquest just for the fun of it, and you have to believe this, he would have sent everything out to attempt the invasion of England in 1940.

Hitler was not a man that would save the blood of his military when it came to meet his expectations, especially when the enemy was the soviet one.

At Stalingrad, a time when issues peaked, he did not care, at all. It is very likely he knew that if his orders were to be carried out the 6th Army would be doomed: he decided to doom the army. Let it be. Period.

So for the alleged "Seelowe", had England really been a plan, he would have ordered Admiral Raeder to bring everything: battlecruisers "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau", all the heavy cruisers, the few light cruisers and whatever destroyers available, also the bulk of the U-boat force. I do not recall exactly what was "Bismarck" doing by this months -conducting sea trials if recall correctly- but perhaps also "Bismarck" takes part.

Anf of course, about the entire Luftwaffe.
All the eggs in one basket? Never.

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he knew there could be a possibility for his foreign policy for the west to fail, and have England as an enemy.

Hitler´s alleged plan to invade England was more the product of a sudden undesired circumstance and not one of premeditation and profound desire.

Udet plz see my response in WW2 General titled "Udet- Germany really did not intend to Invade UK ever." And let this thread get back on track. Thanks

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Udet

Mr. Der Alder:

That is not correct.

Whenever I´ve talked down any members, I was simply responding in the same intensity to comments previously sent by them to me.

You can read again on the "Best combination of maneuverability and speed" thread, where many of you made a scandal when I said "I am wasting my time" to Sir KrazyKanuk in one of my postings.

If you read a mere 3 or 4 postings before mine, you will discover Sir KrazyKanuk told me exactly that. This is easy to verifiy. He first threw the tomato.

So, what I did was just to respond in same intensity to a comment first launched at me. And as I have said, no one told anything to KrazyKanuk for being likewise smart enough to feel he is wasting his time here.

Der Adler: point (5) of your comment is way out of the line. My attitude can be trainable, so I´d appreciate it very greatly if you could please post or PM me with any comments from me that fit within such category. Getting cornered and start launching insults as the only resource? I do not think so.

This is more than just that one thread, it involves ever since you have been there and someone says something that does not correspond with your beliefs about Hitler and how bad the Allies were.

Originally Posted by Udet

You have the right to like and defend Plan_D as much as you want; in a diametrically opposed scenario you have the right to dislike me or my views i do not care, but what you can not deny is the fact the individual is way worse than I am when it comes to launch insults at people here and has not received any sort of words to refrain himself from behaving in such a manner. (need more examples? you can read his rant on some argentinian members who were calmly dicussing the Argentinian-British war of the Falklands).

I tell plan_D and any member of this forum when I think they are wrong, adn that goes for you as well, deal with it!

Originally Posted by Udet

I was just exercising my right to defend myself.

Then stop thinking you are gods greatest gift to this forum and people will not have to attack you or actually more like defend themselves against you.

Originally Posted by Udet

Hunter368, yes, Hitler wanted peace, but hey, he was not a lamb right?

Yeah and Sadam Hussein did not really want to gas the Kurds.

Originally Posted by Udet

I will try -and want- to make peace with you, please...but if you continue in the bully mode inspite of my efforts it will get to the point where I´ll say "to hell with you, really want to fight? good, I will be glad to please your needs you bloody sod..."

If what you are trying to say here is that Hitler was being Bullied by the allies, then really Udet you have twisted sense of History because it was Hitler who started WW2. It was Hitler that ordered the Holocaust. Hitler was the evil one and the Allies did the right thing by stopping him. Hitler was the Bully here.

Originally Posted by Udet

That perhaps Hitler in fact may have desired to invade the island, sure!When finally realizing peace would not be possible in the west, and a war with several fronts was a definitive, a permanent reality, and never as a fundamental plan or goal.

The only reason he would have attempted a Peace with England would have been so that he concentrate on Russia. Hitler was a mad man who had one thing on his mind, conquest. Sorry Udet but that is the case.

Originally Posted by Udet

Again, Hitler was no fool. Although he sought peace with the Empire, also he