Favorite Sub-machine gun

[Nonskimmer]

The Russians may not have the best troops in the world, but they typically make some damn good small arms. The philosophy is simple: Make robust, tough, reasonably accurate weapons that are simple to operate and maintain. It seems to work.

[schwarzpanzer]

On the Mog thing PlanD

1. The 'skinnies' were probably stoned. Some stoner 'ignored' a .303 once!! Wherever they're expected SWAT have the best weapons.

2. There was a trooper who used an M14 and found it effective. They showed that in the BHD film too, so yeah an SLR would've done the biz.

[plan_D]

They weren't stoned, they were high on Khat. I will take the Delta word for it, they needed a more powerful rifle than the CAR-15. 5.56mm do not do the job.

[schwarzpanzer]

Look at point 2 will you PD?

The early 5.56 (not SS109) was more lethal, though lacked penetration compared to the current NATO issue.

Also in the Afghan mountains the 5.56 is considered pants.

[Blackwatch]

As former infantry, the issue is weight to knock-down power....auto fire is for the point man and slack man, house clearing (room clearing), or covering fire and/or withdrawls.....every other time is on semi....a submachine gun is a highly specialized weapon used for specific circumstances or need....ALMOST all infantry needs are covered by a accurate sustained rifle or selected target fire designated by the squad leader or platoon leader....fire at where the enemy MAY be or thought to be....you can always get more rounds, you may not be able to get more trained infantrymen....a sub gun simply wastes rounds most times....usually the need for one is covered by other weapons like a pistol or grenade...or like with the 203mm grenade launcher....

I broke into the military with the M14....one cannot argue with a 7.62mm round....it plants people it hits...

if I had to pick on it would be the M3....the rate of fire allowed accurate auto fire out to 150 meters, plus the .45 plants whoever it hits...period

[Jabberwocky]

One bullet isn't always going to put a guy down, particularly not a SMG or pistol bullet. But the same is true even for a 7.62 or a 5.56.

The actual force of impact of a bullet isn't going to knock down a target. The momentum imparted to a target when it is hit with a rifle bullet is similar to the amount of momentum that a well thrown baseball or cricketball would impart, it is just spread over a much smaller area

The human body can lose about 1-1.2 litres of blood before shock is induced an consciousness is lost. The only certain way to incapacitate an attacker is to cause significant damage to the central nervous system, or cause enough loss of blood to shut down the attacker's higher (and potentially lower) brain functions. There are certainly psychological factors that might stop an attacker ("I've been shot!"), but depending on these is probably not a good idea, and discounts the possibility that the attacker's state of mind is altered chemically or emotionally to a point where being shot won't seem like that interesting a distraction. That means you want to:
*Penetrate deep enough to get to major organs or blood vessels. *Disrupt the tissue of those structures.
*Encourage profuse bleeding and/or CNS damage

Part of the problem in Mogadishu was that troops with the M4 carbine (mostly Delta) were issued 'green tip' semi armour piercing ammunition. Obviously SAP ammo is not going to fragment like standard M193 5.56mm ammo. A 5.56mm NATO (either M193 or M855) impacting at anything above 800m/sec will relaibly fragment, causing very large temporary and permanent cavties as well as deep penetration and large exit wounds. The 5.56mm NATO also has a tendency to tumble 'upwards' some.

The problem was that the M193 is generally fired from a M16 (20 inch barrel) and has a higher initial velocity and will reliably fragment out to about 200m, while the M855 is used with the M4 carbine (with a 14.5 inch barrel) the and will only fragment out to about 50m. Hence less temporary cavity, less chance of fragmentation and a much harder put down.

[lesofprimus]

The actual force of impact of a bullet isn't going to knock down a target.

I dont think I'll comment on that one....

[Blackwatch]

Jabberwocky, are you in the forces? or have been?

[plan_D]

The Delta Force were using the CAR-15 in Mogadishu with titanium tipped AP rounds.

And trust me, one 7.62mm round will knock anyone off their feet. Take into account that sniper rounds are normally 7.62mm - one shot, one kill. A trained soldier is told to aim at the chest which will puncture vital organs and often kill instantly, or at least very quickly. A really good shot will be hitting heads - but much less often than the opponents chest.

You get hit with a 7.62mm round in the chest or head ...you're as good as dead.

[P38 Pilot]

Also taking a shot like that through the knee caps will cause a lot of pain and will take your whole leg off!

My cousin who was in Vietnam said that the M-16 was useful if you:

1) Knew how to use it properly
2) If you could handle it on full auto
3) make the bullet hit a weak point in the human body.

He said they were taught how to "tilt" the 5.56mm round in the gun. In order to do this you had to put it on semi but this was a great way onto bring the enemy down. When you fired the round, the bullet would spiral like when you miss threw a football and when it hit the Vietnamese, it could tear a limb off or if it was a head shot, spilt it wide open.

My cousin said that a friend of his did this technique in Nam and took the Vietnamese's right arm off! It was dangling before the shot him in the chest.

[evangilder]

Those three points are true with any weapon. How do you "tilt" a round in the chamber?

[lesofprimus]

Thats a new one to me too....

And for the record, just to clear up any misunderstandings, I have fired the 7.62 round in combat, and it DOES knock the target off their feet...

[evangilder]

yup

[102first_hussars]

The STG-44 all the way it was the most accurate of its day, and the first Asault rifle to be designed, it had the firepower to carry the same role as the BAR.

In my opinion it was the most beautiful in comparison to others at the time.

You may notice that the HK-5 bares a slight resemblance to the STG-44

[P38 Pilot]

How do you "tilt" a round in the chamber?

I remember him telling me that before every patrol they would take a rod or something and set the bullet in a different position from the others. You could only do this with one round or the gun would miss fire or jam.

I dont have to much detail on this but ill try to find out the next time i see him.