Favorite Sub-machine gun

schwarzpanzer · 10-22-2005, 03:02 PM

Jabberwocky:

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One bullet isn't always going to put a guy down, particularly not a SMG or pistol bullet. But the same is true even for a 7.62 or a 5.56.

Even pistols firing Magnum or hollow-point rounds are capable of this.

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The human body can lose about 1-1.2 litres of blood before shock is induced an consciousness is lost.

It depends on a lot of factors the principal one being the person's mass.

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Part of the problem in Mogadishu was that troops with the M4 carbine (mostly Delta) were issued 'green tip' semi armour piercing ammunition.

I didn't know that, thanks JW.

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Obviously SAP ammo is not going to fragment like standard M193 5.56mm ammo. A 5.56mm NATO (either M193 or M855)

I'm pretty sure all NATO 5.56 is SS109?

I think M193 is the early Vietnam era round I was talking about?

If so, this tumbles very well as it is rear-heavy.

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Originally Posted by PlanD

You get hit with a 7.62mm round in the chest or head ...you're as good as dead.

Funny you should mention that PD, the 7.62 can suffer from the SAP problems in the Mog.

This is made worse if the target is running at you?

- Basically the wounds seal themselves.

The force can rip flesh along with it with the 7.62 though, and if it hits bone it fragments (the bone).

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Originally Posted by P38

My cousin who was in Vietnam said that the M-16 was useful if you:

2) If you could handle it on full auto

Thats not a problem so much with the 5.56, the leightweight of modern rifles makes it harder though.

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Originally Posted by 102first_hussars

The STG-44 all the way it was the most accurate of its day, and the first Asault rifle to be designed, it had the firepower to carry the same role as the BAR.

It wasn't the most accurate (Bren?), the 1st AR was the Fedorov Avtomat (WW1), the .30 '06 had more power than the Kurzpatrone 7.92.

I think all this 'tilting' is for extra tumble?

This is an interesting link:

http://www.bobtuley.com/terminal.htm

102first_hussars · 10-22-2005, 04:36 PM

"It wasn't the most accurate (Bren?), the 1st AR was the Fedorov Avtomat (WW1), the .30 '06 had more power than the Kurzpatrone 7.92."

The Bren was a LMG,

Isnt the 30'06 the 7.62 by 63mm casing? cause if it is than the german 7.92 had a bit more punch to it.

And maybe it wasnt the first but it was an incredible weapon.

schwarzpanzer · 10-22-2005, 04:47 PM

I thought you were comparing AR's and SAW's?

That's why I included an LMG.

The 7.92 of the StG44 was shortened as compared to the standard 7.92 of the Kar98k, MG42 etc.

It could still penetrate a steel helmet at 600m though apparently.

Though this may be far-fetched?

102first_hussars · 10-22-2005, 05:15 PM

Oh when I included the BAR to my other post I was saying that it was capable of sustaining that role as a SAW.

schwarzpanzer · 10-22-2005, 05:47 PM

The AR replacing an MG is a difficult point with me, I always see a need for a SAW/LMG.

As is the MG42 being used as a SAW/LMG.

I understand, the BAR was lacking in the Sustained fire role, but it gave birth to the ZB26 and FN MAG (240) 2 very important weapons.

Have you seen the Brit film 'The Bunker' 102first Hussars?

It features the StG44 held correctly, that takes practice! - Good film.

Also the Infra-rot Vampir and MKb42 are worth looking into if you like the StG44.

Vampir StG44 and Panther G.

www.arniesairsoft.co.uk

http://www.legendshobbies.com/fns/MKb42.htm

MKb42 Walther and Haenel models.

102first_hussars · 10-22-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer

The AR replacing an MG is a difficult point with me, I always see a need for a SAW/LMG.

As is the MG42 being used as a SAW/LMG.

I understand, the BAR was lacking in the Sustained fire role, but it gave birth to the ZB26 and FN MAG (240) 2 very important weapons.

Have you seen the Brit film 'The Bunker' 102first Hussars?

It features the StG44 held correctly, that takes practice! - Good film.

Also the Infra-rot Vampir and MKb42 are worth looking into if you like the StG44.

Vampir StG44 and Panther G.

www.arniesairsoft.co.uk

http://www.legendshobbies.com/fns/MKb42.htm

MKb42 Walther and Haenel models.

No I havnt seen that movie, whats it about and when was it made.
Cuz I cant stand those WW2 movies from the 50'-70's theyre stupid.

schwarzpanzer · 10-22-2005, 08:20 PM

No worries, it's from the 90's at the oldest.

It's actually a thriller movie, but is very good.

It has 'Moksie' from Auf Weidersein Pet in it.

BTW: Please don't quote my entire post, it takes up room and makes the page take longer to load.

lesofprimus · 10-22-2005, 08:58 PM

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and makes the page take longer to load.

Get DSL...

102first_hussars · 10-23-2005, 05:20 AM

Hmm Ill have to look into that movie, if it was made in britain the chances of me finding here are very slim,

we get mostly America entertainment here.

Nonskimmer · 10-23-2005, 09:20 AM

As a matter of fact, I just saw The Bunker for rent at Rogers Video yesterday. Me and the wife rented Halloween: Resurrection instead though.

P38 Pilot · 10-23-2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

P38 wrote:
My cousin who was in Vietnam said that the M-16 was useful if you:

2) If you could handle it on full auto

Thats not a problem so much with the 5.56, the leightweight of modern rifles makes it harder though.

Even back then firing the little 5.56mm was tough.

I forgot to mention this but my cousin was also taught at basic training to hold the M-16 a certain way so when you fired it, the gun wouldnt "jerk" hard to the right or left.

Blackwatch · 10-23-2005, 12:55 PM

battle-site zero for a M-16 is 250 meters in the US Army or was anyway...I taught my guys 250 meters is way to close...we have other means to engage, so use them

cheddar cheese · 10-23-2005, 03:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Nonskimmer

As a matter of fact, I just saw The Bunker for rent at Rogers Video yesterday. Me and the wife rented Halloween: Resurrection instead though.

It was on TV here a few days ago, too tired to watch it though

plan_D · 10-23-2005, 11:39 PM

I'm quite amazed that some people actually think getting struck by a 7.62mm wouldn't be that bad. This almost shocks me as much as when I found out that the majority of my chemistry class didn't even know how a gun worked ("It uses a spring, doesn't it?") ...

The odds of a 7.62mm round causing little damage is slim to nil. No matter where it strikes on the body it will rip most of the impact area away with it. The odds are it's going to strike and shatter bone, when the bone is shattered it takes a very large portion of the body with it.

lesofprimus · 10-23-2005, 11:48 PM

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No matter where it strikes on the body it will rip most of the impact area away with it. The odds are it's going to strike and shatter bone, when the bone is shattered it takes a very large portion of the body with it.

100% accurate assesment....