Flags of our Fathers... Fiction?

[comiso90]

The explosion is funny too. Was there Napalm in that 8 inch shell?

[evangilder]

From the Naval history site of the US Navy:

From: Commanding Officer U.S.S. "New York" (BB 34)

The construction and positioning of defensive installations such as pill boxes, blockhouses, coastal batteries, and antiaircraft installations necessitated in every case a direct hit or many near hits to complete their destruction. Spotting on the 16th and 17th was by ship's planes and on the 18th range was closed to 1,750 yards, and spotting was by both plane and ship. The last day of bombardment was most effective because of the great facility with which targets could be identified and salvos could be spotted, and also because of the large quantity of ammunition expended on targets by the 14"/45 caliber and 5"/51 caliber batteries.

From: Commanding Officer U.S.S. "Nevada" (BB)

The enemy installations on Iwo Jima were very well camouflaged and of very heavy construction. The larger one could be destroyed or severely damaged only by repeated hits with the main battery. At ranges from 1,500 to 2,500 yards these targets could be distinguished by ship's spotters and gun pointers and trainers. Pointer fire was most effective as the fall of shot and results could be clearly seen. Most of the damage done to enemy installations by Nevada's gun fire was accomplished at short ranges with pointer fire.

The 40-mm. battery was used against a variety of targets including caves, suspected machine gun emplacements, light artillery emplacements and on one occasion against a small number of enemy personnel. The 40-mm. fire was believed to be effective only as a harassing agent. On the one occasion against enemy personnel, about six men were observed abandoning a damaged block house and were strafed with 40-mm. fire.

[timshatz]

I stand corrected. Evidently they were in that close. My bad.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by evangilder

From the Naval history site of the US Navy:

Thanks Evan. I mentioned earlier that I wondered if the 40mm's were used and u answered my question.

When using the big guns, do u know if they used HE rounds or Armor Pierceing for the bunkers?
I thought there was a minumum distance for the fuses to arm.

From WIKI..."New York sailed 21 November for the West Coast, arriving at San Pedro 6 December for gunnery training in preparation for amphibious operations. She departed from San Pedro 12 January 1945, called at Pearl Harbor, and was diverted to Eniwetok to survey screw damage. Nevertheless, despite impaired speed, she joined the Iwo Jima assault force in rehearsals at Saipan. She sailed well ahead of the main body to join in preinvasion bombardment at Iwo Jima 16 February. During the next 3 days, she fired more rounds than any other ship present; and, as if to show what an old-timer could do, made a spectacular direct 14 inch-hit on an enemy ammunition dump."

[evangilder]

The site for all the info is here:

Capture of Iwo Jima

They have a ton of good info there. I think they used both for the bunkers. In most cases, it took several direct hits to destroy them.

[comiso90]

great site!

[lesofprimus]

Ill tell u what guys, that was a bunch of information discussed most excellently... Great stuff....

Interestingly enough, I think if u look at the pic I posted,

I think that the distance of the third wave from the beach suggests more than 2,000 yards to me... I think we can assume that at the very least the Battlewagons were not inshore (under 3,000 yards) during the initial assault... I havent been able to find any other aerial photos to prove this once and for all...

[timshatz]

I keep kicking it over in my head and the numbers for putting a BB in at less than 3000 yards don't work. Not saying the reports are wrong, but if you think about it, being in that close creates more problems than it solves.

The only thing a BB can shoot at that close (with main armament) would be Suribachi. The rest of the island is relatively flat. Figuring they are about a mile off shore, the projectiles really don't start to drop in that space. If you are shooting at the mountain, all well and good. It is a big mound and it can be hit. But the rest of the island, you have a good chance of your big shells flying the width of the island and landing over the other side. And our ships were on the other side.

Figured they might be doing reduced charge shots. That would work on the mountain. But really have little affect on the flat parts. In short, the BB guns are too close and the rounds do not have the opportunity to drop. No plunging fire. All direct. Doing that with a DD is fine, they're good for that. But above that, I would figure they would want the rounds to penetrate and burst deep (especially when shooting at bunkers and caves).

But then again, it shows in Evan's post that they did get that close. It is repeated in two different paragraphs with two different ships at slightly different distances. Hence, it is not a typo.

This is the stuff I think about at 3am on sleepless nights. Shooting at Suribachi with main guns is the only thing I come up with at that range.

[evangilder]

Keep in mind that the info on the Navy History site is from after-action reports and first hand information. I do know that ships coming dangerously close to shore to help our guys on the ground played itself out many times in the Pacific. My Uncle Jack was on Iwo, but unfortunately, he is not around anymore. One of the post-battle reports with Iwo stated that to be able to destroy the Japanese bunkers, several direct hits had to be accomplished.

I don't think the Battleships came that close during the initial landings. But then, the Japanese held their fire initially to allow the Marines to get into the interlapping fields of fire. Once the guys on the beaches started coming under the tremendous barrage, I believe that is when it happened.

[lesofprimus]

Hmmm.... Anyone know what the gun tube depression limitations are on those big guns of the BB???

[evangilder]

I did find this picture of the Idaho supporting beaches on Iwo. It's a bit hard to gauge the distance.

[lesofprimus]

That looks to be atleast as far away from the beach as the landing craft in my above pic... Judging that 2000 yards is equal to 6000 feet, Id say by my sailors eye that its atleast a mile from the beachfront..

Also, it looks like her 14 inch guns arent trained into the beach for fire support...

[evangilder]

I was thinking that same. The picture description only said the Idaho firing on Iwo in support of the battle. It didn't say if it was a pre-invasion or a post invasion fire. I did notice that all the big guns were facing forward.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The two rear turrets could be facing toward the island. I think it is an optical illusion because I dont think there was room on these ships to face the rear turrets foward.

[lesofprimus]

Heres another pic of her....