German AFV Pictures. (1 Viewer)

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On another note, the Allies really didn't have anything in service that could go against the German Tiger in a one on one battle and stand even a remote chance of surviving. The M26 Pershing could but it was hardly available in numbers and I think only one of them actually saw combat...

Typhoons and Thunderbolts as well as artillery...
 
Only one M26E4 "Super Pershing" saw service in World War II with the 3rd Armoured Division. At Dessau it destroyed a King Tiger and one Panther in two days.

More than one Pershing took to the fight.
 
Panzer IVs and Vs
 

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I'm aware of Typhoons and Thunderbolts and artillery but I was meaning in a one-on-one tank slug-fest. There was no common Allied tank in Europe that could go against a Tiger and have a reasonable hope of surviving that I am aware of... Okay, I only knew of the one having seen combat, but there were others.
 
May I share this rather well known picture with you gentlemen? One of a destroyed Sd.Kfz 250/1 in Berlin, knocked out in the attempted breakout which unfortunately failed. It is said to be from the SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs Abteilung 11, also know as Schweden zug which had many Swedish volunteers. The dead man is said to be Unterscharführer Ragnar Johansson from Stockholm. Here is a better version of the picture. The halftrack was knocked out on Friedrichstrasse the night between 1-2 may 1945
11SSSPW250KOBerlin.jpg

Great thread again folks. Especially like those camouflaged tanks, good for dioramas....keep 'em coming.
 
By the way what game were those screenshots taken in? By the way, any idea what knocked out that Sd.Kfz 250/1 because it looks pretty shredded at the top although the front looks perfect... Actually no it doesn't it looks like whatever hit it hit it on the left hand side front if you were behind it facing it.
 
The half track photo is very famous. There is a rear view where you see more casualties and one of them is a nurse.

Swedish Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht in WWII


"guess you seen the SdKfz 250/1 at page 265 in "Berlin now ant then" used in the same brakeout - there is another photo of that vehicle from behind showing a dead nurse sitting in the open door. The photo is in the book "Ragnarök" page 187 written by the Swedish Waffen-SS volunteer Erik Wallin. The chessboard seen in the photos confirms that it is the same vehicle.
Wallin writes some about how the 250 were shot up close to the S-Bahnstation bridge at Friedrichstrasse and that everyone inside were killed at once exept for the commander H-G Persson and the driver Ragnar Johansson. However Johansson were killed by a hand grenade as he left the 250 and is the soldier seen lying to the left in the photo on page 265."

from:
Axis WWII Discussion Group
 
Tigers actually did not do well in the offensive role, even on a 1 for 1 basis. They were far too slow, lacked mobility and were short legged. tiger Is were first used offensively south of leningrad, and were more or less cut to pieces. not sure when the tiger IIs were first used, but when offered them to lead his assault, peiper rejected them in favour of Panthers. He was right to do that as the Tigers were found to be an overall liability in the battle. most were lost or abandoned, having achived virtually nothing of any value, whereas the Panthers came close to pulling off a bit of an upset. Panther was a far better all round tank and far closer to the modern day concept of "Main Battle Tank". Tigers were more akin to the Heavy Tank concept, which soldiered on into the fifties, but was found to be an obsolete concept. They were found to be actually vulnerable because of their lack of mobility and too inflexible because they were really not able to adapt to the offensive role.

Where tigers excelled, was in the defensive role, acting as fire support vehicles, and mobile pill boxes. In this role, they absorbed an inordinate amount of allied resources to contain. But mobile pill boxes dont win battles.

Tigers make pretty pictures for computer games, and thats about it.
 
Not that I think the Tiger was not superb, but that it was used wrong.
It's my understanding the Tiger was originally intended as a limited production vehicle for use against fortifications. 32 ton VK3001 was to replace Panzer III and Panzer IV as the first German MBT.

Speer changed the program when he took over during the spring of 1942. Production order for Sd.Kfz.165 10.5cm SP howitzer was cancelled and the chassis were used to build Panzer IVG. Tiger tank production was increased beyond original intent as it could defeat Soviet heavy tanks such as KV series.
 
@ Dave

It's my understanding the Tiger was originally intended as a limited production vehicle for use against fortifications. 32 ton VK3001 was to replace Panzer III and Panzer IV as the first German MBT.

Speer changed the program when he took over during the spring of 1942. Production order for Sd.Kfz.165 10.5cm SP howitzer was cancelled and the chassis were used to build Panzer IVG. Tiger tank production was increased beyond original intent as it could defeat Soviet heavy tanks such as KV series.

I have told you once that this claims are very wrong!
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/tanks-europe-1944-45-a-33460.html

To repeat them, make them not better!
Speer had nothing to do with the introduction of the PanzerIV F2, this was decided summer/autum 1941, as the T34 and KV were a bad surprise at Barbarossa and german tanks in production needed as fast as possible much more firepower and the PanzerIV was the only tank in production, which had the room for this firepower upgrade.!

The german's heavy tank project was in development since 1937. Look at the development historie of the VK 3601, the direct forerunner.
The construction of the TigerI was beginning spring 1941!

@ parsifal

I don't fully agree with your summary.
After the kindergarden diseases were sorted out and especially the HL 230 P45 became more reliable the TigerI had very good cross country characteristics and was not slow wether on the streets or cross country.

Anyway the rest of your analyse is very correct, because the Tiger I was to short legged, the complexity of the maintenance was much too high and overcharged every german logistic, especially at the Russian Campaign and the production costs and manpower was much too high compared to the Panther.

The Panther was the much better tank for mass production, logistics, maintenance and all tactical circumstances, here I fully agree.

But in summary if we look at all other heavy tank projects and introduced heavy tanks from all other nations, the TigerI had more advantages then flaws compare to other nations heavy tank projects and introduced heavy tanks.
Even the IS2 was not all around better then a Tiger I from a battleground analyse and the Tiger I could stand it's "man" on the battleground till wars end.

In summary only a Panther in mass production would be the better alternative, here I fully agree.
 
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The best tank overall for the germans was the panther, but it was still limited in its ability to be produced. The best all round tank of the war was the T-34. Doesnt mean that in battle that the panther did not usually beat it. However, a T-34 has been estimated to have cost somewhere between $10000 and $30000 to produce, the Panther in 1943 was around $150000, reducing to around $120000 as production glitches were overcome and the design somewhat simplified. Its dangerous to do this, and i am not trying to be super accurate here, but which would you prefer....1 Panther or 8 T-34s. its that simple.

Everybody produced heavy tanks 9or at leasty tanks heavier than their standard "breakthrough" tanks) , and everybody ditched them in the finish for lighter, more mobile less specialised types. The Soviets used their IS tanks to develop the IS10 series. These soldiered on into the 50s, ending up as dug in pillboxes along the chinese border. The British produced their Comets and developed these eventually into Centurion Tanks, and ditched the "tortoise" prototypes as impractical. The M-47 was a development of the M-46 Patton II tank, itself a development of the Pershing heavy Tank. Pershing was never really a "Heavy tank though", more an underpowered large medium. The Americans basically tried to solve that by mating a larger engine to a new designed turret. But as I said, Pershings/Patton IIs were never heavy Tank. A pershing had an all up combat weight of 92000 lb, compared to the tigers 153000 lbs.

Its significant I think what the Germans were planning to do in their 1945 rationalization program. The "type" Panzer Div was reduced to an establishment of just 54 tanks, with cycle borne Infantry components. It was planned to finally phase out the MkIVs, with the sole type for the TDs being Panther IIs. Speer (with thye agreement of Guderian) planned to phase out of production both the Tigers, and to maintain production of Jagdpanzers, centred around the Panther hull. im not sure about what was to happen with STUG III production.

German plans were quite arguably unrealistic, but if the overall war situation had kept the allies out of germany in 1945, it would have been intersting to see how they would have restructured their mobile formations. Of course ther is always the Hitler factor, who was besotted with size in his AFVs. Im not considering that....what would the professional soldiers and the production guys have wanted.....
 

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