German Battleships and convoy hunting.

[Erich]

Del, you are very correct, I made my post to hastily and connected all the boots that were on my mind. The XXIC and XXIII and the future XXVI in numbers but of course it was not the case, the U-boots were frittered away. The KM seems to have been on the last of the listings for priorities with available funds and it is really surprising the KM ships - surface lasted as long as they did. The Luftwaffe could not be everywhere at once and had to play the land game so connection with the KM was on a verynlow end except for the useage of Fw 200's and Ju 290's in air recon roles. The surface fleet although did prove itself quite able in 1945 to eliminate any Soviet ground spearhead or consolidated spot if the "heavier ships were involved" -- the Baltic.

[delcyros]

Yes, Erich. It´s quite surprising that the KM was in 1945 still able to perform coastal bombardments in the Baltic and such a large scale evacuation as they did.
The type XXI boats -surprisingly- weren´t rushed into combat (unlike most other new stuff) but crews were trained extensively with them. Of the over 100 boats commisioned by the KM only the first two (U-2511 beeing the better known) were at VE-day on active duty in the north atlantic (resp. enruote to partol positions). I always wondered how Dönitz managed that Hitler did not involved that much in his plans.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by syscom3

It never happened, but Id like to have seen the Tirpitz one on one aginst one of the US fast battleships. The Tirpitz would have been creamed.

I would not go as far as saying that the Tirpitz would have been creamed. She and her sistership the Bismark were equals to anything on the sea. They were great and magnificant ships. Not until the Iowa class would I say she was outright outmatched.

[Erich]

without going way off topic as this is about surface fleets, but the latter marks of U-boot were never caught by the Allies except upon discovery at wars termination as far as I am aware. Seems odd in some ways that the heavier KM surface ships met an unglorious end in port and bombed without a fighting mans death at sea. Of course the Prinz proud to it's end surrenedered in one piece after subjecting the Soviets to some pretty heavy punishment as well as some lighter KM Zerstörers aiding German ground forces in the same areas.

[delcyros]

Tirpitz vs. Iowa was a possible encounter in early 1943. Iowa was in patrol position in the north atlantic to counter a possible Tirpitz raid from Norway. By that time I would bet my money on the Tirpitz, later on the Iowa. It´s hard to say that Bismarck was totally outclassed by the Iowas. In early 43 in the north Atlantic....its a very equal encountering.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe the Prinz Eugen was the most successful German surface ship, was it not.

[Erich]

good question. The fact that it made it till wars end without being sunk is important but it remained idle for awhile during the 'barbara' refit - replacement with newer 3.7 and 4.0 cm quick firing AA weapons. the same goes for the Hipper too and several others. 1943 and earlier was definately the hey-day for the surface vessels, thennit was a matter of protecting themselves as surviving the air onslaughts.

An advantage was the S-boots since nearly all 1944-45 activities excluding Baltic evacs were done at night -stealth operations. Plan brought out an intersting point, the S-boot arm could not have shut down the British ports alone. Very true but again had their been three times the umber built and put into operations, mining the ports and sea lanes into and out of the ports, there may well have been a stalemate of sorts. simplifying this, the Kleine Boots und U-boots could not handle the load alone

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by delcyros

Tirpitz vs. Iowa was a possible encounter in early 1943. Iowa was in patrol position in the north atlantic to counter a possible Tirpitz raid from Norway. By that time I would bet my money on the Tirpitz, later on the Iowa. It´s hard to say that Bismarck was totally outclassed by the Iowas. In early 43 in the north Atlantic....its a very equal encountering.

I agree with you. I just believe that by that time the Bismark/Tirpitz would have met there real equal in the Iowa class.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Erich

good question. The fact that it made it till wars end without being sunk is important but it remained idle for awhile during the 'barbara' refit - replacement with newer 3.7 and 4.0 cm quick firing AA weapons. the same goes for the Hipper too and several others. 1943 and earlier was definately the hey-day for the surface vessels, thennit was a matter of protecting themselves as surviving the air onslaughts.

An advantage was the S-boots since nearly all 1944-45 activities excluding Baltic evacs were done at night -stealth operations. Plan brought out an intersting point, the S-boot arm could not have shut down the British ports alone. Very true but again had their been three times the umber built and put into operations, mining the ports and sea lanes into and out of the ports, there may well have been a stalemate of sorts. simplifying this, the Kleine Boots und U-boots could not handle the load alone

What happened to the Eugen and Hipper after the war?

[delcyros]

Indeed.
In 43 both ships would field comparable radar aiming tech, Tirpitz having the better optical rangefinder. The Iowa wouldn´t have the huge 1.3 tons shells, the heavy artillery of the Tirpitz is way better, shooting more frequently (18-22 sec. per salvo), more precisely and with a lower impact angle. The secondary artillery is also better, having a better punch with 5.9 inchers. The excellent protection of the Iowa would probaly secure it from critical hits beyond 11.000yrds but less than half of the waterline is protected, it´s possible to sink the ship without critical hits from any range. Under 11.000 yrds it would blew up after some critical hits. The Tirpirtz armor sheme covers 85% of the waterline and the Iowa wouldn´t even have a chance to get critical hits from point blanc range. It´s only chance would be to stay out of range with it´s better speed (the highest recorded speed was 32.5 kts. at unknown displacement), hoping that nothing hits the unprotected bow (which would reduce the speed so much) and trying to get hits with very high impact angle at distances further than 24.000yrds. Using this tactic (...what they couldn´t know, since the shortcomings of Bismarck/Tirpitz armor system weren´t known prior to years after wars end) the Iowa could get a critical hit and beeing safe. It should be noted that hits from this range are highly unprobable in ww2. The only recorded hits at open water in such a distance are Gneisenau vs. Glorius at 26.000yrds and RN Warspite vs. Reggiae Marinae BB at 25.000ft. Both hit no critical part of the ship.

[delcyros]

Eugen was nuked alongside with other ships. After Able and Baker the ship still remained afloat. But without crew for the easiest damage control it took more and more water. It was toyed away but sunk after some days.
Hipper participated in some Baltic actions and eventually returned to Kiel, where it (beeing damaged) was scuttled at May 3rd.

[Erich]

Agreed Del ........

The Prinz was handed over to the US navy after many weeks of testing and removeal of her arms and heavy turrets she was taken to the Bikini Atoll and nuked out.

the Hipper was bombed/sunk to the bottom of her port # 5 at Kiel in May of 1945 and then broken up in August of 1947. what a mess..........

[delcyros]

Yes. Interesting that they bombed the Hipper two days after it´s decommission and scuttling in Kiel, maybe it still was visible and therfore a target of opportunity.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not knowing much about Naval Warfare (just the basics). I agree del on you thoughts on the Tirpits vs. Iowa.

[syscom3]

Heres an excellent site that compares all the battleships and attempts to numerically rank them.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

The Iowa and South Dakota class's were clearly better than the Bismark. And I would say the North Carolina class would be better too.