German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska (1 Viewer)

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Sometimes the airport in Fairbanks would be socke din from weather for several days at a time.

The war wasnt effected then, was it?
 
After considering all the options available, I believe that a raid would have been somewhat feasable. The primary objective would be the Electric Boat Co. Yard located in Groton, CT. This would severely hamper the us sub building capability, the only other primary yard being the Portsmouth Naval Ship Yard in NH.

I believe that the primary attack would be a Platoon of combat engineers from the FJR Pioneer Bn. 1, loaded on 2-FW 200(condors).
The planes would make the flight nonstop from Berlin to Ct. in under 25 hours nonstop and painted as commercial Airliners, possibly flying low under radar like the japanese at pearl harbor. The planes total capacity would be 46 pax and a extra squad of engineers could be attached to provide security for the aircraft as well as the 9 crew memebers of the aircraft once they landed at the Groton Airfield (Civilian) and refuel and prep the aircraft for the return flight. The assault force would then commandeer vehicles to drive to the shipyard and then infiltrate the shipyard causing as much damage as possible, a excellent job for combat engineers. This would definitely be a worthwile mission and excellent propaganda mission, cutting US Sub production in half possibly.

Off the coast UBOATs could offload raiders in boats as a secondary attack force, maintaining radio contact with the primary assault force. The UBOATS would be a secondary means of escape also if the airfield was overrun. Once the timed explosives did their job on the shipyard the UBoats could cause some confusion to the shipyard to cover the withdrawl of the engineers back to the airfield.

I dont think that a attack on Alaska is at all feasable and ther would be no way to resupply a long term military force in the USA or Canada, remember at this time all the long range transport aircraft in the luftwaffe were trying to resupply the russian front. There were simply not enough aircraft available to make any long term operation statesid viable.
 
I dunno. While I could see them landing at Groton Civilian, they would definitely get people's attention. Granted, they're dressed up as Allied Air Liners. But once you land, the clock starts ticking for a response.

Getting into the sub yards is feasable, but again, only for a short time. After that, the reaction from local forces (very confused and sporatic, but that is what makes it so tough to deal with-they're everywhere) would be hard to handle with only 70 guys.

All that being said, it's got a decent chance of accomplishing some damage. But I wouldn't put much money on them getting away.
 
Were US subs that much of a problem for Germany? IIRC it was more airbourne patrols and surface ships that caused the most damage against U-Boats. Don't know if cutting sub production would affect the ETO that much.

And I don't think it would be that easy for Fw 200s to fly non-stop that distance, especially with the load you mention. If it was, the frontline would have been straight up Broadway.
 
Parsifal,

A single Type IX could easily carry an extra 25-30 men if the number of torpedoes stored were cut down. Again remember the role of the Uboat is but to act as transport, and thus it would need hardly any torps, and the ordinary nr. of crewmembers could even be decreased.

And again one of the primary goals of the entire operation is to strike fear into the American public, not just to destroy key targets. After an attack like proposed the American public would demand better protection, meaning A LOT of money needed be poured at securing coastlines and what not.

JugBR said:
germany doesnt have any kind of "comandos" like that

Get more educated on the subject before making such blanket false statements.
 
All
The attached photo was posted much earlier on in the thread. For those that did't see it ,this is the forward torpedo room of Type IX submarine with only one torpedo in it.

Museum of Science and Industry | What's Here | Exhibits | U-505 | The Exhibit | On-Board Tour

I suggest that you look at the picture, think about Sorens statement that 25-30 men could easily live on board a Type IX with the torpedo's taken out and draw your own conclusions.

Re replacing some of the crew that is an interesting idea but as a Type IX only had a crew of around 63 how many could you replace?
 
All
The attached photo was posted much earlier on in the thread. For those that did't see it ,this is the forward torpedo room of Type IX submarine with only one torpedo in it.

Museum of Science and Industry | What's Here | Exhibits | U-505 | The Exhibit | On-Board Tour

I suggest that you look at the picture, think about Sorens statement that 25-30 men could easily live on board a Type IX with the torpedo's taken out and draw your own conclusions.

Re replacing some of the crew that is an interesting idea but as a Type IX only had a crew of around 63 how many could you replace


For about 18 days no less, with 20-30 tons of equipment as well.

Specially modified I-Boats, with about twice the displacement of a Type IX, and with an entire hangar to boot, and even with srores lashed to the upper deck (techniques unkown and unused in the Kriegsmarine) could carry just 14 tons of cargo.

Dont ever let the facts get in the way of a good fantasy, I guess.
 
The Germans could have found a way to stuff a platoon sized contingent into their subs, with their gear. Its also not out of the realm of possibilities that the KM simply have a couple oversized subs built for special purposes. Put in a 15 - 20 foot "plug" into the boat.

Besides, the US did it in the Pacific on occasion, most notably when regular fleet subs were used to evacuate Corregidore in the PI.

But, in the end, the Germans couldnt effect the war to any degree. It would have been a waste of resources. Now if they went after the refineries in Texas or in the gulf ..... that might do something.
 
Some people here seem ignorant to the fact that the forward torpedo room is by far not the only room used for bunking in the boat. Also just by looking at the picture and seeing how much room a single torp actually takes up there should be no doubt that if 63 men could be onboard when 22 of those torpedoes were carried then without them another 25-30 men should be able to come along.

Also ignored is that a different and larger type boat than the Type IX is suggested for the operation.

And then there's the equipment of the commandoes, well as tried to be explained most of the German subs featured top cargo holds with enough space for 4 - 6 torpedoes combined, making for plenty of room for the 8 -10 or so equipment boxes needed. (Model of German equipment box below)

51-bLi0BFTL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
 
I agree Soren, that it is possible to load a boat with commandos and carry out some sort of mission but I just don't see any target that would be worthy of the effort.
 
Some people here
I wonder who that might be:lol:
seem ignorant to the fact that the forward torpedo room is by far not the only room used for bunking in the boat.
Then again, others tend to forget that the bunks were already hot bunked and are not available for anyone else.
Also just by looking at the picture and seeing how much room a single torp actually takes up there should be no doubt that if 63 men could be onboard when 22 of those torpedoes were carried then without them another 25-30 men should be able to come along.
All the torpedos for use were kept in the torpedo rooms, so the space you see is the space you have. There is of course the rear torpedo room which was half the size so multiply what you see by 50%.
Also you need to remember that in a type VII most of the spare torpedos were stacked up on the deck with a false wooden deck on top for the crew to walk on. I believe that Type IX's used a similar process (the technology was basically the same) so replacing torpedo's with people isn't as straight forward as it seems.

Also ignored is that a different and larger type boat than the Type IX is suggested for the operation.
Which carried 24 instead of 22 torpedo's which isn't a huge difference. Also you have made the same mistake in your assumptions that exta size equalls more space inside. British nuclear attack subs for instance, which are huge by WW2 standards still had hot bunks and could not carry 30 additional troops.

And then there's the equipment of the commandoes, well as tried to be explained most of the German subs featured top cargo holds with enough space for 4 - 6 torpedoes combined, making for plenty of room for the 8 -10 or so equipment boxes needed.
As long as the equipment is basically small arms and the size of backpacks I don't believe that would be a problem.
 
Lets see some sources to back up those false claims Glider, so far you have put forward nil.

Hot bunking was done when all 22 torps were carried, which filled up a lot of space in the torpedo rooms, space where there could be a lot of extra bunks. But that's not the only place the crew sometimes slept, they also made some nice little beds on the flor occasionally.

In your picture I see a lot of space extra space by just removing that one torp.

And below I see space for a lot more men, were those two torps removed. When the boats were fully equipped the torps were stacked and filled up nearly all the space for the bunks, and would've filled the space where the below bunks are on this picture:
416589669_053c533031.jpg



As for modern Uboats, regardless of what you think Glider these are actually used as transports by Spec Ops on many occasions, just ask Les.
 
SysCom3
IIRC US usually used Argonaut and Nautilus to transport their raiders and those were huge boats at that time, more than a double the size of Type IXs, displacement submerged appr 4000tns vs 1400-1500tns. So if Nautilus could carry 80-100 men after modifications that doesn't necessary mean that Type IX could carry a platoon.

Soren
have you any facts other than speculations? SysCom3? found out that one sunken sub was carrying 7 Brandenburgs, have you any knowledge of U-boat carrying greater number of commodo men?

Juha
 
Soren
At the end of the day you are left with 20 men in that forward torpedo room and 10 in the rear torpedo room for about three weeks. You think that isn't a problem, I and others do.
On our side a number of people have looked and as Juha has said the max anyone can find was 7.
I have been on a similar submarine for 4 days and know haw difficult it was not to get in the way. Parsifal has supported this statement from his personal experience on an Oberon class submarine which is a similar size.

On one side of the debate are the photo's that show the size of the space, the research of actual missions, personal experience on board submarines.

On your side there is a theory which has changed slightly as the thread developed.
a) You started off by saying that with some of the topedos removed 30 men could be carried.
b) Then it became with all the torpedos removed the men could be carried.
c) Things then changed so that there were plenty of other places where people could sleep

All of this supported by nothing
 
Interesting Soren that you used a picture of the Bavaria Film Studios set for Das Boot.

You do realize that your picture above is a movie set.

Granted the set was very realistic.
 
I actually wasnt aware of that Adler, but as you noted I really see no difference between the real thing and that set, and compared to the torpedo room of the real things it certainly isn't too large:

(Note the nr. of bunks rendered unusable by a single torpedo and a little food supply, when on patrols the boat would litterally be stuffed with both and yet still 63 were able to live inside for two months or more)
U505forward_torpedo_room.jpg


Oh and Glider, as for experience, I've had rides in subs before and with full crew there was still room for me and me mates. So as for the experience factor, well sorry but that isnt in your favor either.
 
How many mates I was with 3 and I admit that it wasn't easy. Can I ask which sub you were in and for how long, also how did you find it.

Re the pictures you posted, are those of the film set in which case there is one huge difference between those pictures and the one that I posted of U505 which is of course a real Type IX submarine. The torpedo room in the pictures you posted is twice as long as the real submarine which is a big difference.
 

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