German commando attack on the US, Canada & Alaska

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Soren

The thing I find confusing here is that some seem to suggest that the US wasn't already doing all it could when it hadn't suffered commando raid. In my mind that makes no sense at all.

The US industry was running as fast as it could right after Pearl Harbour, so a Commando could only hamper that to some degree, it certainly wouldn't strenghten it.

I can just imagine these guys landing on the east coast of Canada without drawing attention to themselves , I'm quite sure no one in Germany speaks french Acadian style or talks like a Newfoundlander . They would generally be limited to rail transport for the 1st 700miles

[RabidAlien]

*LOL* @PBfoot


Soren....not sure if I came across clearly or not. Immediately after Pearl, the US started shifting over to a war-footing. It took a little time to do that. Even when running full-steam, yes a commando attack would've slowed down production a bit....kinda like pulling a bucket full of water lessens Niagra Falls. Sure, it does, but only to a degree that would interest a mathemetician. The grunts on the front lines/boats/skies wouldn't've noticed any appreciable decline in parts/supplies/ordinance/replacements.

Anyhoo....that's my conjectures on the topic. *g*

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

The thing I find confusing here is that some seem to suggest that the US wasn't already doing all it could when it hadn't suffered commando raid. In my mind that makes no sense at all.

The US industry was running as fast as it could right after Pearl Harbour, so a Commando could only hamper that to some degree, it certainly wouldn't strenghten it.

It might of diverted resources to prevent further attacks, the strength would of come from the people who would of produced even more toward the war effort.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

The thing I find confusing here is that some seem to suggest that the US wasn't already doing all it could when it hadn't suffered commando raid. In my mind that makes no sense at all.

The US industry was running as fast as it could right after Pearl Harbour, so a Commando could only hamper that to some degree, it certainly wouldn't strenghten it.

How was the US running at full speed after Pearl? The US war effort grew stronger and faster with each passing year.

[parsifal]

Adler

You are absolutely correct. US Productive output is estimated by Overy (I think) never to have exceeded about 75% of its maximum warmaking potential, even as it reached its peak levels of output in early 1944. Proper rationing was never introduced in the US. About 60% of aircraft produced, never left the continental US. The home air force of the US was about 5000 a/c from memory. The US army was expanding rapidly, and in training. As far as I can see, putting a couple of hundred German commandoes is going to give the massive continental air force targets to find and bomb, and the US army live targets to practice on. The majority of the US army formations were raised either pre-war, or in 1942, but did not leave the continental US until 1943-44, so there were oodles of "unemployed" US troops to run around all day hunting down the Commandoes. Any damage to the US economy is going to be very slight, and easily taken up by the uncommittedd elements of the US economy.

Finally, how are these commadoes going to get past the blockade. By June 1941 the OKM enigma coses (less the U-Boat codes in 1942), were being read to a significant degree. All of the tankers sent out to support Bismarck had been rounded up by June 1941, as a result of the enigma code intelligence, preventing any significant continuation of the surface raider war after that time. Those raiders already at sea in June were able to continue to the end of 1941. However, new raids by the surface raiders were not breaking out effectively from the second half of 1941 on. The blockade of Germany was more or less complete (with the exception of restricted cargoes being smuggled into Germany via some of the neutrals) from the middle of 1941 onward.

A mission of this type would have to involve the use of coded messages on the enigma system, and these are almost certainly going to be intercepted and understood by Bletchely Park. It has all the makings of another Zimmermann telegram IMO, and similar consequences. From Septmeber 1941, even the slightest hint of belligerent action by Germans against the continental US would have brought an immediate and swift response from the US, and not one that Herr Hitler would be too pleased about.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

In the end I do not think it would have accomplished anything.

Blowing up the Hoover Damn would hurt a small portion of America. The US's resources were spread out all over the United States.

A "terrorist" attack would have put fear into the people, but in the end it would have only rallied the US people even more and given them more resolve to end the war and more than likely "punish" Germany on an even greater scale.

I would agree with D.A.I.G. on this.

Instead Adolf should have send Brezels and Beer to the USA since 1933, reminding the US about its historical ties (e.g. Steuben) and population heritage to Germany, the common issues between Nazis and KKK or the general affiliation of the southern states to Nazi Germany.

Who knows, but there might have been a chance to disrupt the US – England affiliation, rather then ignorantly declaring war against the largest economic power in the world.

Regards
Kruska

[eddie_brunette]

Interesting...mmmmm

Leave the commandos and concentrate on the Heavy Water and FW200 project

[johnbr]

Some years ago they did find a German on maned weather station off Labrador.It was found out after the war that the Uboat men would go on fur lo
in east coast provinces.Because they would find ticket Studs in dead Uboat crew for the theater and movies.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The US industrial machine was so vast, theres nothing the commando team could have done to materially effect the war.

I would disagree.

But I do think Cmmando raids would of tied up alot of the war machine..America had a bigger war machine ...Harder to hurt then the Germans Machine...

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

It might of diverted resources to prevent further attacks.

This is exactly the point.

Originally Posted by RabidAlien

I don't think a commando attack on the US, anywhere, would've done Germany any good. Keep in mind that the country was really unified after Pearl Harbor. Even the Isolationists were all for attacking and gettin some back. A commando attack would not have done any good....raids that small, in a country that has no "front line borders" anywhere near it, would not have diverted any significant amount of troops from critical front line positions.

I would disagree with that. Remember that the US has only about 1 division available after Pearl Harbour, {other than those troops already committed, and those training} There was a significant panic after Pearl Harbour, Eisenhower writes that the War Dept. was deluged with requests from dozens of west coast cities for troops & aircraft to protect them. Imagine how much more strident those requests would be if there were some actual attacks? And if they were ignored and some commando attacks were later committed, the Isolationist opposition would be calling for more troops to protect "America First", and worry about overseas deployments later. The congress was more united after Pearl, but there were still serious disagreements over war strategy.
[/quote]

Here is a thought for you all - How about a "frogman" style attack by commandos similar to the Italians that hit British Battleships in Alexandria & other ships in Gibraltar.

These two ports were major British Naval bases, at wartime, vigilantly guarded by patrols that were expecting just these type of attacks.

Suppose that the Italians sent some of these teams, with gear, to be inserted at night by German U-boats near the US East coast ports.

The USA was at peace, they did not expect to be attacked, and were much less vigilant than British ports {which were in a war zone}

Compare the defence {or lack therof} of Pearl harbour which was threatened by its location, and which had been warned of iminant hostilities by Japan.

Is there any reason to think that Norfolk or the other Eastern ports would be even as prepared as Pearl Harbour?

[syscom3]

The US had several divisions available available on the eve of Pearl Harbor. You dont need big armoured units backed by artillery to protect key structures.

As for industrial targets? The most vulnerable targets were the transmission lines coming from the dams in the NW states, where the majority of raw aluminum was made.

But remember, the commando teams could only damage, not destroy. Damaged things can be repaired. And as events proved during the war, the US showed it could rapidly repair or build anything. Drop a bridge into a river? No problem. A new one will be built within a few months.

The only thing a commando group could do is inflict terror, and you can only do that for so long. And like I said, the US industrial capacity and infrastructure was so vast and redundant, nothing of key importance could be knocked out for long.

[RabidAlien]

I guess it all depends on "when" this commando raid(s) would take place. If Hitler had gotten together with Yamamoto and coordinated the attacks, I think the Isolationists would've had a larger following, instead of everybody abandoning them and flocking to the recruiters. But we did have several divisions available (not to mention countless pissed-off police, fire, Boy Scouts, and every redneck hunter/poacher in the nation), and unless there was a full-scale German invasion, they would've taken the commando raiders fairly quickly. I was assuming this would be taking place in '43 or '44, maybe as a last-ditch strategy by Hitler in early '45. Even ignoring Hitler's mania for a moment, there would realistically be nothing for Germany to gain by poking the US with what would amount to a fuzzy Q-tip. Sure. Some damage would be done. But nowhere near enough to really matter.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

How was the US running at full speed after Pearl? The US war effort grew stronger and faster with each passing year.

Yes ofcourse it did. As the war progessed more factories, more workers etc etc were assembled, hence the higher output pr. year. (The German industry ouput aslso increased pr. year)

Still this doesn't mean the US wasn't doing all it could, it was but it had to build up the industrial output over time just like any other nation. You can't just start off producing thousands of a/c from one week to the other, you need the factories, materials & workers to do the job first.

This whole theory that the US industry wasn't even producing 75% of what it could is extremely far fetched.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The US was able to "industrialize for war" rather quickly. That is fact.

A commando raid on one small locations is not going to stop the US from doing so.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by Soren

Yes ofcourse it did. As the war progessed more factories, more workers etc etc were assembled, hence the higher output pr. year. (The German industry ouput aslso increased pr. year)

It was actually a changeover of factories from domestic to miltary production, and even at the height of US mobilzation, US production is reliably estimated to have never exceeded 75% of its maximum warmaking potential


Still this doesn't mean the US wasn't doing all it could, it was but it had to build up the industrial output over time just like any other nation. You can't just start off producing thousands of a/c from one week to the other, you need the factories, materials & workers to do the job first.

This whole theory that the US industry wasn't even producing 75% of what it could is extremely far fetched.

What are you basing that conclusion on. Read Overy, the leading postwar economic analysis on the war before making claims like that. Surrogate evidence can be found that the US was not even close to working to full potential from the fact that the US never even introduced a true scheme of rationing. They couldnt even utilize all the war production that they did enlist. At the time, US industrial capacity exceeded 45% of total world production (I have even read claims that it was a high as 62%, but I dont accept that figure).

US war production would have been completely unnaffected by any sort of commando raid that involved a couple of hundred men. it would have been a complete waste of German expertise, and would have handed the numerous formations then under training in the US with the opportunity for a live firing excercise basically

[Soren]

Parsifal,

I for one don't believe that only 75% of the US warmaking potential was used, it would mkae no sense to have such an attitude in war, esp. a two front war. Also the various advertizements for buying war bons, donating all things of metal etc etc, also keeps me from believing it. But let us just agree to disagree about the warmaking potential utilized by the US.

Now as for the German commando attack affecting the US industrial output, I agree that it really couldn't to any really maeningful extent, but it has never been about that either. The purpose of the attack would be to cause terror within the US, Canadian & possibly the Alaskan public and last but not least set up a multitude of weather stations & radio transmitters.