German commando attack on the US, Canada & Alaska

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

Now as for the German commando attack affecting the US industrial output, I agree that it really couldn't to any really maeningful extent, but it has never been about that either. The purpose of the attack would be to cause terror within the US, Canadian & possibly the Alaskan public and last but not least set up a multitude of weather stations & radio transmitters.

What would that do?

Nothing. All it would do is hurt Germany even more. The people would have been more angry and would have more resolve to fight the war and win it. You have seen how the people were after Pearl.

No weather stations and radio transmitters would last. If the Germans could set them up the US could take them out just as easy.

[Soren]

What would that do?

Nothing. All it would do is hurt Germany even more. The people would have been more angry and would have more resolve to fight the war and win it. You have seen how the people were after Pearl.

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.

No weather stations and radio transmitters would last. If the Germans could set them up the US could take them out just as easy.

That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

German weatherstation:


From Uboat.net (Read the entire article, it's very interesting):
uboat.net - U-boat Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943

[FLYBOYJ]

Interesting about the weather stations but also look where they were....

Remember the Japanese occupied part of Alaska and although their removal resulted in one of the bloodiest battles of WW2 for the most part they could of just stayed put and their impact on the war would of still been negliable, in fact I think it was a bad move for the US to retake Kiska and Dutch Harbor when they did. All the US had to do is wait out the occupying Japanese forces and the ultimate battle to remove them would of been a lot less bloody, but again it's easy to look at the situation in retrospect as we now know how the war actually played out.

[syscom3]

Soren, we discussed the US industrial production in another thread.

But to remind you ...

1) The factories were in place and had been underutilized for a decade or more.
2) The US had been in a naval and AF buildup since 1940
3) The US GNP was still growing even in summer 1945.
4) As weapons and material (including airplanes) were being standardized throughout the services, even more output was being planned.
5) With the naval buildup completed by 1945, millions of tons of steel was going to be available for other uses.
6) By late 1944, the housing and transport issues for the factory workers was being solved, so even higher efficencies was being planned.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Soren

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.



That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

German weatherstation:


From Uboat.net (Read the entire article, it's very interesting):
uboat.net - U-boat Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943

have ever been to Labrador , its the size of Germany and has a population under 50000 today , I know when the GAF came over they were amazed at how isolated it was . I lived in Goose Bay and I believe the next town was 400nm away

[Njaco]

IMHO I think you would have to narrow it down a bit as far as a commando objective. Such as where they were building Norden bombsights. Wouldn't that raise a little hell? Something like "Eisenhammer"?

I thought some commando types were dropped off in Florida and made their way to New York and other cities before being captured. One of them turned on the others and was the only one not executed.

[RabidAlien]

There were a few spies that were dropped off on the Eastern Seaboard, all of whom were caught or turned themselves in. I don't know that any of them "turned state's evidence" or not, but they were all caught. In a country that was willing to put thousands and thousands of American citizens of direct Japanese descent into concentration camps, strangers were generally looked at rather closely. As for hitting the Norden bombsight plant...there were more than one, and I don't think Germany would've wanted to disrupt that anyway. It wouldn't have stopped the production of the bombsight, and would only have clued the US in to the fact that Germany knew where it was made, knew the significance of it, and regarded it as so inferior that it wasn't worth stealing. It would've been much smarter to sneak in to the plant some night (difficult when they were running round-the-clock), photostat some copies of the designs, and sneak out again. A successful op would've netted Germany the bombsight without anyone being the wiser, which would've greatly increased the accuracy of German bombing. Why carpet-bomb London, when you can plant a planeload on Churchill's doorstep?

Then again....nobody ever accused Hitler of thinking logically and progressively. He probably would've ordered a plant or two blown up, then staffed his bomber crews with psychics and mediums. *g*

[Haztoys]

Do we really need to call the Japaneses Camps "concentration camps" ...I do not think they were starved and worked to death and gas as the Nazi's did to the Jew... They were interned and keep against there will...But concentration camp bring up pictures of die staved people in a mass grave... Or it just me I guess..??? .......... ...

My Mom worked at the one in Bishop California..She drove a truck to and from LA with supplies

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Haztoys

Do we really need to call the Japaneses Camps "concentration camps" ...I do not think they were starved and worked to death and gas as the Nazi's did to the Jew... They were interned and keep against there will...But concentration camp bring up pictures of die staved people in a mass grave... Or it just me I guess..??? .......... ...

My Mom worked at the one in Bishop California..She drove a truck to and from LA with supplies

I went to visit that camp last summer. Its now a national monument due to the historical significance of it.

Best way to call it is a "detention camp".

[Haztoys]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I went to visit that camp last summer. Its now a national monument due to the historical significance of it.

Best way to call it is a "detention camp".

I to have been there last year...When the camps came up a few years ago .. And the news were calling it a concentration camp..My Mom roller her eyes ...And said " They ate better were warmer and there roof did not leak then how she lived during the war"...And she also did not see a reason to keep them in the camps and they were very caring people...She did say that there was a very deep hate for the Japanese people from the American public...And felt they were probably safer there then in there homes with all the upset Americans ...

Sorry to get this off tread ...Back to were this was going...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

It would scare them witless and force the US government to spend huge amounts of money on securing its coasts, cities, towns, villages and so on, basically everyone would want protection.

For a few days, Soren. You underestimate the US people. 2 weeks later no would have cared. It would not have effected the US resolve at all and the money that would have been allocated would have been negligable.

Originally Posted by Soren

That isn't true as the German put up several weatherstations on US soil and they all functioned beautifully, and none were found during the war. Some were found after the war and some have been found recently, still functioning...

Operations - Weather station Kurt erected in Labrador in 1943[/url]

Soren look at the locations of those things. They had 0 impact on the war. If they had been placed any closer to the real mainland of the US, they would have been destroyed rather quickly.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The US had several divisions available available on the eve of Pearl Harbor.

Which divisions? I believe that only the 1st was available, the Marines were earmarked for Pacific operations, while the rest of the Army div's were still training.

Originally Posted by RabidAlien

I guess it all depends on "when" this commando raid(s) would take place. If Hitler had gotten together with Yamamoto and coordinated the attacks, I think the Isolationists would've had a larger following, instead of everybody abandoning them and flocking to the recruiters. I was assuming this would be taking place in '43 or '44, maybe as a last-ditch strategy by Hitler in early '45.

By 1943 the writing is on the wall, it's too late to have any chance to affect the outcome of the war. This type of operation must be done in the first 6 - 8months or so to have any real benefit

US war production would have been completely unnaffected by any sort of commando raid that involved a couple of hundred men. [/quote]

Agreed, the purpose of the raids would not be to affect production.

Originally Posted by parsifal

It would have been a complete waste of German expertise.

I would disagree. An argument along the same lines could be made that operation "Mincemeat" achieved no benefit because it did not destroy even 1 Geman aircraft or soldier. However the deception that it fostered was a huge help to the Allies, as the Axis deployed 1,000's of troops & airpower to Sardinia, that were needed in Sicily.

Does anybody have thoughts on my previous question?

Originally Posted by freebird

Here is a thought for you all - How about "frogman" style commando attacks by the Germans or Italians similar to those that hit British Battleships in Alexandria & other ships in Gibraltar?

These two ports were major British Naval bases, at wartime, vigilantly guarded by patrols that were expecting just these type of attacks. Yet the Italians were still able to achieve their missions.

Suppose that the Italians sent some of these teams, with gear, to be inserted at night by German U-boats near the US East coast ports prior to "Pearl Harbour". Then perhaps the night after the PH attack, they could strike at the USN bases

The USA was at peace, they did not expect to be attacked, and were much less vigilant than British ports {which were in a war zone}

Compare the defence {or lack therof} of Pearl Harbour, which was threatened by its location, and which had been warned of imminant hostilities with Japan.

Is there any reason to think that Norfolk or the other Eastern US ports would be even as well guarded or prepared as Pearl Harbour?

[Glider]

I admit that this is one of the whackiest ideas I have heard for a while. Listing the problems
1) The Germans had no recc information,
2) No spies to assist with planning or logistics
3) No method of transporting the men and equipment that would be needed to the USA assuming that you need more than 4-5 men and backpacks
4) No method of transport when (if) they arrive
5) Every chance of being detected by Enigma code breaking before they arrive.
6) Little chance of doing any damage if they pass items 1-5
7) Every chance of handing the Allies a PR goldmine
Every chance of binding the USA together in the fight against the Axis forces.

[Soren]

Glider, you're wrong on many of your points:

1.) The Enigma wasn't completely broken in 42 & 43, infact there was a period were it was fully kryptic.
2.) The men could easily be transported by U-boat, the Germans set off spies in the US quite a few times, not to mention a multitude of weatherstations etc etc. And a Type IXD could carry tons of equipment and men, easily carrying about 25 men beyond the crew
3.) When they arrive they can commandeer a vehicle if needed.
4.) Civilian clothes is brought along to give the ability to blend in when needed.
5.) Spies could be set off long BEFORE the raid, gathering information beneficial to the succes of the raid.

__________________________________________

Guys,

Here is a possible hypothetical scenario:

In early 1942 the planning of the raid has been completed, and it goes as follows:

3 weeks prior to the commando attack automated weatherstations & radiotransmitters are set up on the coasts closest to the target areas by U-boats. During the following weeks intel is gathered on the weather conditions and the various US radio stations are monitored as-well as any radio communication in the area.

The purpose of this is to make sure that beyond the weather being good at the time of the landing, and perhas knowing about certain events taking place in the area, it is also made sure that no'one has gotten hint of anything, perhaps discovering one of the weather & radio stations, in which case the operation can be called off.

To further safe guard against the cover being blown German spies are set off a week before the raid, there mission being to gather intel much the same way as the radio & weather stations while at the same time making sure they aren't uncovered. The spies will also gather the crucial information on the landscape & terrain of the target area, having ready detailed maps at the arrival of the commandos. The spies can also acquire transportation to the commandos as they land, picking them up in a purchased truck or truck(s).

Now as to the goal of the operation itself, well let's say 25 commandos are dropped off at each landing zone (During the night ofcourse). Now after having landed and reached the target area time has pretty much run out to carry out any further tasks that day, therefore the men will plan & then rest until next nightfall.

Now as to the attack itself, well we can think about that but there are few possible things they could do:

They could sneak in at night, place some explosives, and heck perhaps even break into a bank, acquiring valuables. While that is done another team would bust the local police station, taking out the personnel (Or taking them hostage). All the while five other men are cutting telephone lines as well as electricity to the town. If this was done to a town it would be helpless until the next day.

However remember no'one is suggesting any of this will be a walk in the park, many things could go wrong, and it often only takes one thing to go wrong for the rest to follow suit. So if the mission is to have any chance of success it is crucial that all details regarding the operation stay secret right up till the night of the landing itself. Regardless to say the right planning coupled with highly skilled spies & commandos are absolutely essential to the success of the operation.

Now as for all of you who are skeptical, think for a moment, how would you carry out a similar operation, remember there is always some way to do it.

[Juha]

Soren
what is your definition for “quite a few times” in this time, I can recall one, maybe two cases of Germans landing spies into USA.

Now according to U-Boat net only one automatic weather station was landed in North America and that in KANADA, not in USA.

And for ex. weather station near the landing point only gives info what the weather is at the moment, it doesn’t predict what the weather will be on next day or next week. And even the possibility to got current weather info from the station would not be sure, because, from U-boat.net. “Reports indicate that the weather station sent out normal transmissions for a few days, but then there was apparent jamming on that frequency.” That station would not have helped much on planning a raid. etc

Juha