German commando attack on the US, Canada & Alaska

[Soren]

Parsifal,

Had the Germans wanted the Mailie they would've gotten it, infact they almost certainly already knew most of the things worth knowing about it, the Abwehr being all over the Italian armed forces. However the Germans had no use for it in late 43, and so a procurement of one wasn't even considered.

But again, had the Germans wanted it they would've gotten it, either the easy or the hard way. I'm sure the KM could persuade the Italian Navy to hand over a few examples of the Mailie in exchange for some KM hardware. If not the Abwehr could simply steal all the plans.

Now moving onwards, how would you guys equip the 25 man teams set off on US, Canadian & Alaskan soil ?

[syscom3]

Soren, and just what were the 25 man teams going to accomplish?

What targets? How are they going to carry enough explosives to destroy their targets?

Especially when it came to Alaska. Nothing was there, save what was on the Pacific Coast.

[Soren]

Syscom,

It doesn't take a lot of explosives to do a lot of damage. The prefered explosives would be plastic explosives, such as DM12.

In Alaska the goal is merely to create terror, while in Canada & the US there are possible targets to destroy as-well.

[parsifal]

Had the Germans wanted the Mailie they would've gotten it, infact they almost certainly already knew most of the things worth knowing about it, the Abwehr being all over the Italian armed forces. However the Germans had no use for it in late 43, and so a procurement of one wasn't even considered.

The chief Abwehr operative in the Italian Admiralty was the KM naval Attache. I think his name was Raus, from memory.

I am not going to assert that the abwehr didn’t know about Chariots, but neither is ther any evidence that I know of to say that they did know of it. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it.

In fact the circumstantial evidence very strongly suggests otherwise. The reports that I have seen (but I cannot now find) suggest that the OKM was very surprised by the equipment, and the success of Chariot attacks in November. Moreover, what is not so well known is that the 10 MAS had been operating for some months out of a disused merchant hulk, anchored across the bay to Gibraltar, in the Spanish port of Algerciras. The British had been unable to locate the source of these attacks. This small group of saboteurs managed to sink over 100000 tons of ships in Gibraltar, and were never caught. The british did eventually get a good clue as to what was happening, but this was never the result of covert intelligence. Now, if the germans had known about this they would have talked about it, and if they had talked about it the british would have found out about it, because the german security services were basically a swiss cheese with holes all over it, when it came to the SOE. There has seldom been a more compromised security organization as the abwehr. Moreover there is also the weakness of Enigma, which throughout 1941, the Allies were reading

The Italians had a weak security service as well, but it did not suffer from enigma style breaches like the germans, because they didn’t use it (until 1942), and their own security services were actually superior to the Abwehr 9there wwere other security organizations, namely the B-Dienst service, the SD and Gehlens team attached directly to OKW. But none of these services had operatives working in Italy in 1941.

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But again, had the Germans wanted it they would've gotten it, either the easy or the hard way. I'm sure the KM could persuade the Italian Navy to hand over a few examples of the Mailie in exchange for some KM hardware. If not the Abwehr could simply steal all the plans.
The german intelligence services were not on a par with its armed forces. The abwehr was basically the laughing stock of Europe, because all the intelligence agencies knew that they could sell any story to the organizations and it would accept it, hook, line and sinker. The german intelligence system suffered from being over rigid, and too centralized in terms of its control. This prevented many of its spy networks from employing the sort of quick thinking tactics that were needed in order to work successfully as a spy. Moreover, the over rigid approach taken by the abwehr meant that their operatives were generally very easily identified and compromised. In England for example, there was not one German spy that had not either been captured or compromised from early 1941 on .

Whilst I cant prove which spy service (Italian or German) had the upper hand, my suspicions are that it was the Italian. The italain spy service was nothing like the Italian military, it was actually quite efficient. For example, the Italians predicted, with a great deal of accuracy, the Torch and Sicilian landings, whereas the Germans were basically floundering.

Certainly, if the germans did know about the Italian chariots, they did not act on it, until after the November attacks. After that, they, in common with nearly everybody else, wanted to get their hands on the technology. AFAIK, they never did, and the proff of this is in the rather p[oor efforts they made in the form of the Neger and the Marder minisubs, which were based on the same general idea.

Lastly, the 10MAS outfit was the crème de la crème of the Italian military, It was a thoroughly professional outfit, full the equal to anything in any other army, and not an easy organization to penetrate when it came to its most jealously guarded secrets.

An overt “raid” would have had disastrous impacts on Italo-German relations. Are you suggesting that you would jeapodize the whole southern front, for the sake of delivering 4 Chariot attacks against the Americans. This really is getting a bit silly.

Now moving onwards, how would you guys equip the 25 man teams set off on US, Canadian & Alaskan soil ?

Err equipping 25 man teams from U-Boats. Considering that each type IX is able to carry no more than fourteen men , exactly how many teams are we talking about. Given that you will want to so lavishly equip these teams, I estimate that you will need at least 4 boats per team. I don’t know how many type IXs there were at this time, but it wasn’t many. Each boat was basically sinking about 100000 tons of shipping per patrol, so, if youo are pulling these boats out of the subs available for tonnage warfare, as you must, in order to train the crews, and modify the boats for the operation, then you have foregone the loss of about 800000 tons of British shipping per team, and for what??????/

[syscom3]

Soren doesnt know anything about the size or terrain for Alaska and Northern Canada.

Therefore we should concentrate on these potential spy teams for deployment on the eastern seaboard, maybe even Gulf Coast.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Soren doesnt know anything about the size or terrain for Alaska and Northern Canada.

Therefore we should concentrate on these potential spy teams for deployment on the eastern seaboard, maybe even Gulf Coast.

I totally agree
the eastern seaboard is really the only option

[Soren]

Parsifal, study the Type IX boats abit mroe before making blanket statements like that. The Type IX boats could carry more than just 14 additional men, infact 25 extra men was easily carried, and then there was still a lot of room for the equipment. Did you miss the top cargohold ?

Now as for missing out on 80000 tons of Allied shipping, are you suggesting that this is what the boat which set off spies in Labrador did ?? Your ignorance is becoming laughable Parsifal.

And as for the Abwehr being the laughing stock of Europe, you don't know what you're talking about Parsifal. Or are you trying to suggest that all those Allied spies caught & executed by the Abwehr just walked right into their office headquaters with their arms in the air yelling *I surrender!* ?? You're right Parsifal, this is getting abit silly.

Like I said, the Abwehr no doubt knew about the Mailie, but seeing there was no use for it a procurement of one was never planned.

Also I'd lke to know from where you got the info that the Italian secret service got the landings of the Allies right whilst the Abwehr was in the woods ???

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Soren doesnt know anything about the size or terrain for Alaska and Northern Canada.

Yes I do. Remember people live there Syscom, so you can get there.

Therefore we should concentrate on these potential spy teams for deployment on the eastern seaboard, maybe even Gulf Coast.

Spy teams ??

[pbfoot]

[quote=Soren;360572]Yes I do. Remember people live there Syscom, so you can get there.



[quote] proves that your not familiar with those regions,
I'm quite interested into seeing how you get guys to Alaska the only road was the several thousand km long gravel Alaska Highway which was built solely to supply troops to Alaska so it was run by the military

[syscom3]

Tundra, mountain ranges, vast malarial marshes impassable during the summer, bittter cold .... plus the hundreds of miles they would need to travel to get to any military or industrial target worth hitting.

Very, very few people lived in the northern reaches of the continent. And the few that did were such expert survivalists and trackers, they would simply find and then pick off the commando teams one by one.

Soren, stick to an eastern seaboard or gulf attack.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Tundra, mountain ranges, vast malarial marshes impassable during the summer, bittter cold .... plus the hundreds of miles they would need to travel to get to any military or industrial target worth hitting.

Very, very few people lived in the northern reaches of the continent. And the few that did were such expert survivalists and trackers, they would simply find and then pick off the commando teams one by one.

Soren, stick to an eastern seaboard or gulf attack.

Mosquitos and No see ums (blackkflies) I don't believe it was possible to drive across Canada at tha point in time let alone get up north that was all done by boats and aircraft

[parsifal]

[quote=Soren;360571]Parsifal, study the Type IX boats abit mroe before making blanket statements like that. The Type IX boats could carry more than just 14 additional men, infact 25 extra men was easily carried, and then there was still a lot of room for the equipment. Did you miss the top cargohold ?

The japanese i-boats were about 2.5 times the size of the Type IX, and after full modification could transport 24 fully armed soldiers. they could also carry a 46 foot Daihatsu LCI that was lashed to the deck, or up to 10 tons of cargo, located in the seaplane hangar, which was many times the size of the cargo spaces in the Type Ixs.

I was being generous when I said that the Type IX could carry an additional 14 men. Unlike the I-Boats which were known for their capacious dimensions (which worked against them in terms of their survivability), German subs were designed with an absolute minimum of habitability in mind. That limited their endurance (until later in the war, from the latter part of 1942, with the introduction of the Type VII/42, and the later Type IXs like the IXD2), AND their ability to carry extraneous cargo, like troops and mines. They could do it, but their capability was limited. With 14 troops embarked, and say 5 tons of supply, your team is going to arrive at their destination after
nearly a month at sea, tired, cold, hungry, probably sick, and much weakened by the journey. NOBODY, not even the Japanese carried that number of troops that far by submarine

Oh, and by the way, I do know German Submarines, very well in fact.


Now as for missing out on 80000 tons of Allied shipping, are you suggesting that this is what the boat which set off spies in Labrador did ?? Your ignorance is becoming laughable Parsifal.

If you look at the average number of Boats at sea in 1941, and then subtract from that the numbers of Boats you will need for your proposed operation, you are going to find that you will need to deduct about 800000 tons of shipping losses from the Atlantic. This is based on a two month absence, and four boats being unavailable for that duration

And as for the Abwehr being the laughing stock of Europe, you don't know what you're talking about Parsifal. Or are you trying to suggest that all those Allied spies caught & executed by the Abwehr just walked right into their office headquaters with their arms in the air yelling *I surrender!* ?? You're right Parsifal, this is getting abit silly.

You are referring to the SOE failure in Holland I believe. Compared to that, the ABwehrs failures are legion. I wont bore you with the details, but put it this way, whereas SOEs and Bletchley Parks efforts materially affected the outcome of the war, the Abwehrs achieved hardly anything of note.
The proof is in the pudding. The Soviets completely compromised the German security system, starting with the likes o Sorge, and culminating with the "Lucy" Ring, which delivered the attack plans for the Germans at kursk onto Stavkhas desk. Abwehr was unable to do anything about this and other acutely embarrassing gaffs, basically because it was incompetent.
I will concede that there were other German efforts like BDienst, and Gehlen who did make a big contribution to the Axis war effort, canaris' organization only made some minor effects. They assisted in the invasion of Poland, and in Yugoslavia, just about every other effort ended up being compromised in some form or other. There is a book on this, I believe from memory it is called "Hitlers Secret Armies", or similar. You should read it.

Like I said, the Abwehr no doubt knew about the Mailie, but seeing there was no use for it a procurement of one was never planned.

Fair enough, but how then do yoou explain the fact that after November 1941, the germans and everybody else, except the US, spent a lot of resources trying to obtain and use the technology????

Also I'd lke to know from where you got the info that the Italian secret service got the landings of the Allies right whilst the Abwehr was in the woods ???[/

I cant remember, but it was one of the naval histories, it may have been Roskill and/or Bragadin. I also think Corelli Barnett mentions it in his work on the Royal Navy. I will see if I can dig something out.


Again the proof is in the pudding (at least in sofar as the German failure is concerned). They knew nothing of Torch landings until after the event. In relation to the attacks into Sicily, there was never any inkling about where or when they were to occur, if they had, the units forced out of the Kursk battle as a result of the invasion would never have been undertaken.. The Germans also were not "allover" the Italians as you put it, if they had, they would have taken steps to avert Mussolinis deposement QUOTE]

No, there should be no doubt about it, the abwehr was one of the most incompetent spy networks around, small wonder it was taken over in 1943 by the SD. I know that you are not going to accept that, but any cursory reading of the spy wars will reveal that. Another good read on this subject is called "The Ultra Secret" I know i have a copy of it somewhere, and it very clearly documents the the failure of the German Secret Service

[Soren]

Parsifal you keep claiming that the proof is in the pudding yet you have no sources to back up your claims.

And no you obviously don’t know German Uboats Parsifal, and your weird attempt at comparing them to Japanese boats only verifies this.

The std. type IX could easily accommodate an extra 25 men with no problems what’so’ever , esp. If the number of torps were reduced. A Type IXD could hold over 252 tons of cargo Parsifal!

So again Parsifal, study the German subs before making blanket statements about them.

As for the Abwehr, again no proof or sources from you. Also the Soviets got most of their intel from Western Allied intelligence gathering, the Soviets had nothing to do with it themselves.

[Soren]

Syscom & Pbfoot,

Check the map plz, there are rivers running all over Alaska. How do you think the Germans were able to set off Spies in Labrador Canada ? Heck if I wanted to I could land my 25 men in Quebec.

Like I said, people live there, and so you can get there: An old but very true slogan.

[timshatz]

Soren, you might want to check the details on Alaska as far as infiltration is concerned. I see your point that you can get there using a sub. There are a multitude of places to land where there wouldn't be anybody around. Rivers could be used as routes of travel further inland. I agree, strictly from a potential point.

The problem with Alaska, especially in the 1940s, is the same as what they used to say about Los Angles. "When you get there, there's no there there." In short, it is very much like Siberia. Nothing was there. No industry, a few military bases, the odd Eskimo settlement and lot of nothing in between. Trees, mountains, rivers. No industry, no cities (to speak of), no reason to be there in the first place. Same could be said with the Hudson's Bay region of Canada. Land there? Sure. Land anywhere you want. By why would you want to?

There used to be a running joke/ nugget of truth in the US when I was growing up. Alaska is the largerst state in the United States, but it's population is smaller than that of Rhode Island (the smallest state).

Says a lot.