Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hitler and his evil henchmen kept everything for themselves the Germans never saw any of this so called "booty" as mister genius RG_Lunatic likes to call it.

[cheddar cheese]

Yup, its all very well talking in hinesight Lunatic, but the way Hitler made it to power was very cleverly, the Germans didnt know what he was doing! You cant blame them!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Sure he can, Lunatic knows everything! But what he does not care to talk about is the problems in his own back yard and I think he doesn't even realize how bad they are because he thinks he lives in a perfect world.

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Okay Lunatic I hate to say this but you really are talking a bunch of BS now. For the first thing I agree about the moral obligations of soldiers. There is no excuse for that. But I will tell you one thing right now and that is that a lot of Germans did not know what was going on. My Grandfather was one of them and you know I how tell because it was in his diary. My Grandfather was respected man and he never lied about anything. If you are calling my Grandfather a lier then you are lucky we are not talking face to face. As for the Germans not saying anything unless they got there "booty" as you called it, you are full of it. The German people never got anything, they never recieved anything. The Germans were just as scared of Hitler as anyone else. My Grandmother was a member of the German Red Cross and she has a steel plate in her head from being hit over the head by a SS soldier because she tried to feed the Untermenschen as they were called. So take your holier then thou attitude and your German bashing some where else. There I finally got it out of me, I am tired of hearing it.

It depends where they lived. Rural Germans indeed had little idea what was going on. But the German's in most cities knew damn well. You have only to watch films of Berlin, Munich, or any other major city taken in 1937 to see. It was well documented.

When the Jews and other undesribles were displaced, this opened up opportunities for the "true" Germans, so they clearly did benefit. Most German's supported Hitler's rise to power, you are making it sound like he was not a popular leader. His rise to power was largely based on telling the "true" German's that they were superior and that the Jew's had conspired against them during and after WWI, denying them their rightful place in the world.

Hitler's Germany was paid for with booty for the German people. This is an undeniable fact. Why did Germany go to war in 1939, contrary to "the plan" which was to go to war in 1942? Why did Hjalmar Schacht fall out of power?

The answer is that Schacht wanted to follow the plan, and wait until 1942 to goto war, but this required backing off the munitions buildup which would doom the German economy to hyper-inflation by summer '40. Hitler chose to take the country to war two years early rather than back off such production, because backing off would have meant the standard of living of the average German would stop rising and maybe fall a little, something he feared would weaken the Nazi party's hold on the German public. The choice was back off on arms production and government buying in general in 1938 or goto war no later than very early 1940. Hitler chose war.

That fact is the standard of living for the average German rose from the moment Hitler came to power. Initially this was done by ingoring the terms of the treaty of Versailles, stopping the payment of reperations debt, and ramping up various industries through government purchasing. When this began to flatten out, the continued growth of the standard of living was perpetuated by stealing property, businesses, and jobs of the Jews (and other minorities), which bought them another 2-3 years. Finally, when nothing else could continue the improvements of the standard of living, Hitler took the country to war.

The fact that the average German was benefiting from Nazi policies is proven by the fact that standard of living of the average German was still on the rise until 1944! A big reason why Germany lost WWII was because they failed to enter a "war economy" until mid-44 (defined as 90% of the economy devoted to the war effort). In 1943 only about 60% of the German economy was devoted to the war effort, where by the end of 1942 90% of the US economy was so focused.

Sure the hard core Nazi's were benefiting the most, but their power was based upon bribing the average German to look the other way and allow the Nazi's to do whatever they wished as long as they got their share. That's just the facts. So when you say, "The German people never got anything, they never recieved anything.", that's just not true.

And when you say, "The Germans were just as scared of Hitler as anyone else.", that's not true either, the average German loved Hitler. Fear of the Gestapo and the SS did not reach the average German until the the war started going hopelessly badly for Germany in about mid-44.

Now, all that being said, I certainly do not hate the German people for this, it's in the past. But it is simply not true that the average German had no idea what was going on. In the beginning they simply chose not to acknowlege what was happening, for selfish reasons. Later, you are right, it was too late for them to do anything about it even if they wanted to (but that was pretty much after 193.

Finally, remember that we in the USA have our own shame to live down in how we treated native Americans, especially in the late 19th century. Again it was the same thing, as long as the "people" were benefiting, they didn't want to know the details.

Do you realize that most Germans (at least in the 80's) have no idea there was a holocaust in which over 6 million Jews were exterminated?

Do you realize that even today, the Japanese generally believe that "Japan was a not very agressive nation in WWII that was conquered by the USA"?

Denying history or choosing not to know simply makes it more likely to happen again.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Sure he can, Lunatic knows everything! But what he does not care to talk about is the problems in his own back yard and I think he doesn't even realize how bad they are because he thinks he lives in a perfect world.

That is hardly true. I'm very concerned about the direction this country is taking. We are one or two 911's away from fascism, maybe less. The Patriot act is the biggest affront to American democracy in our history. But that is another topic.

I know a lot about WWII because I've studied it in great depth. One of my fields of study in college was economics, in particular the economics of war, and most specifically the economics of WWII.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Yup, its all very well talking in hinesight Lunatic, but the way Hitler made it to power was very cleverly, the Germans didnt know what he was doing! You cant blame them!

Are you saying they could not look out their windows and see their Jewish neighbors being forced to leave their homes with only what they could carry? That they did not see Jewish children in the streets after their parents had been interned? That they did not see the trains passing by packed with Jews like cattle? That they could not smell the stench of the camps and later the deathmills? That they did not turn in Jews to the authorities simply for being Jews?

Cheddar, they did know. They just chose not to see, but they knew full well what was happening.

[cheddar cheese]

Yeah but he didnt do that until he was chancellor and until President Hindenberg died, otherwise the laws would never have been passed. By the time he was in power it was way too late for the Germans to do anything, the reason they didnt try is cos they were scared, they did what they were told or they faced the consequences...

[cheddar cheese]

And I meant they didnt know what he was going to do when he got into power, Germany was in the slumps in he 30's, he seemed to offer them a way out but didnt tell them how he was gonna get em out...

And the Big death camps like Auschwitz didnt come about until 1942. Up until then the killings were less brutal than that. For about 4 years they were just treated like ****, then they started being killed every now and then, then Kristallnacht was where it all kicked off (1938 I think, youll have to check the date). Then they were put into slave camps were the Nazis figured they would be worked to death, befor the "Final solution" in 1942.

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Yeah but he didnt do that until he was chancellor and until President Hindenberg died, otherwise the laws would never have been passed. By the time he was in power it was way too late for the Germans to do anything, the reason they didnt try is cos they were scared, they did what they were told or they faced the consequences...

Cheddar you need to do some study on this. Hitler was a very popular leader. Most of the German people followed him very willingly. When Hitler assumed power in 1934 the Nazi party represented a tiny fraction of the German people. Most of the people supported them, or they'd never have been able to act the way they did.

The fact is the bulk of the people were not willing to do the dirty work, but they certainly supported it. The general populous did not become "scared" of Hitler's goons until well into WWII.

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

And I meant they didnt know what he was going to do when he got into power, Germany was in the slumps in he 30's, he seemed to offer them a way out but didnt tell them how he was gonna get em out...

I disagree. It was very clear in 1936 and 1937 that Hitler was at the very least going to steal all Jewish properties and deport them. The German people were generally supportive of this, and they really just didn't care and didn't want to know what was being done with them.

Again, look at the film evidence of German cities in 1937, which were filled with Jewish children who's parents had been rounded up. The German people's complaint was not "what happened to the parents", it was "I cannot walk down the street w/o having to step over jewish urchins".

[cheddar cheese]

NO.

The only reason they supported him is because Germany was going through a time of great depression (much like the rest of the world). He appeard to offer them a way out - they support him. When they get wind of what he was really up to, they start disliking him - however it was too late to do anyhing about it, anyone who opposed them would face the Gestapo. I think you're getting confused with what the German people THOUGHT and what they APPEARED TO THINK. Most of the German population knew very well what was going on by about 1936/37.

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

NO.

The only reason they supported him is because Germany was going through a time of great depression (much like the rest of the world). He appeard to offer them a way out - they support him. When they get wind of what he was really up to, they start disliking him - however it was too late to do anyhing about it, anyone who opposed them would face the Gestapo. I think you're getting confused with what the German people THOUGHT and what they APPEARED TO THINK. Most of the German population knew very well what was going on by about 1936/37.

Again, Hitler was a very popular leader, right up to and through the first 3-4 years of WWII. Most of the German people simply loved him. Most still believed in and supported him right until 1945.

Why do you think they didn't? Because, after the war was over they say they didn't like him but couldn't do anything about it? The historic evidence is quite to the contrary.

[Nonskimmer]

I agree, Hitler was very popular.
The ultimate consequences of world war and attempted genocide were, to say the very least, unfortunate. But to the German citizenry of the 1930's, he was something of a hero. He restored German pride by putting the people back to work, thus restoring the economy and a sense of national purpose.
Although his rearmament policies were in blatant violation of the Treaty of Versailles, this hardly mattered to the population of a broken, humiliated Germany. He rebuilt a powerful armed forces and strongly promoted nationalism.
Remember also that the political views promoted by the National Socialist Party were, throughout the 1920's and 30's, not unpopular throughout much of Europe. Germany was, following it's defeat in the Great War, ripe for the seeds of National Socialism.

Whether or not the German people remained as committed after the early 1940's perhaps remains for some debate, but to the population of the 1930's he was indeed welcomed in Germany.

[HealzDevo]

I think you are being a little unfair on the population of Germany. They had a master pyschologist for a leader, who knew exactly how to manipulate people. By 1935-1939, Hitler had already gathered too much power. He had started gathering his power in 1925 for Goodness Sake. People may not have been entirely aware of what Hitler was up to, because of his ability to brainwash people with his speach. Someone was saying that Hitler could talk a women to an orgaism for goodness sakes. If he can do that, how much easier to sway people's emotions in an uncertain time. It would be interesting to know how many Germans were killed during the period from 1935-1939 and throughout WW2 for opposing Hitler. I'm sure there would have been quite a few secret trials of these people. We don't have the complete records of this period however due to burning of records as the Soviets moved in on Berlin. Therefore this period of history is an unanswered question as to how many died in the early part of Hitler's regime. As for later on during WW2, there was encouragement of children joining the Hitler Youth Brigade and informing on their parents!!! Does this sound like the sort of environment that people would speak openly in? I don't think so. Also you have to remember that there were various attempts on Hitler's life by German people. Unfortunately he survived those attempts, but it shows just how worried some of the German population were about his leadership. I refer to the Bomb at the headquarters plot which involved Rommel, the Desert Fox. He ended up being killed by the Gestapo.