Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids

If we accept that then we basically are saying that the people are not reponsible for the actions of those who they put in power. That is a dangerous philosopy, and I hope we in the USA don't have to learn that lesson the hard way.

My point is the German people knew what Hitler was about from the start. He was preaching hatred and prejidice from the beginning. He was talking about "the chosen people" and "Germanic destiny". Yes the people of Germany wanted to have their pride restored, but you don't do that by putting a criminal in charge, and if you do you have to bear the responsiblity for the results. At the very least, you have to live with the shame of it.

[Maestro]

You're right on that point, Lunatic. Germany knew what Hitler was on about. I saw a movie (divided in 2 x 2 hours parts) about his life. When he first enlisted in the German National Party (later renamed Nazi Party when he became its leader), he suggested to the party's leader to include the "Extermination of the Jews" into the party's politic.

When he became the leader of the Nazi Party, he created the SA unit (who then became the SS) who were in charge of propaganda and striking Jewish schools, shops, factories...

How did he got elected ? He burned the Reichtag and accused the Communists of doing it.

The weirdest thig about his life was that his OWN mother was Jewess.

[HealzDevo]

Did they? Do you really think the German people had a full picture of what was going on? I am not excusing the people entirely, but they probably thought Hitler was just exporting the Jews elsewhere. Most people in Germany even up until after 1945 would have scoffed and told you not to be ridiculous if you had told them about the concentration camps. Even today there are those people that are misguidely believing that there was no holocaust of the Jews in Europe. This belief may be based on the public statements Hitler made where he never referred to what happened to the Jews and such after they were rounded up. What I am saying is that if you listen to a lot of Hitler's speeches they are full of difficult to understand retorical statements. To the ordinary people what would have stood out of those speeches would be his passion. Also, with Communist actions of the period in various countries and even up until 1991, the German people couldn't really be blamed for believing the idea that it was the Communists. The Communists did a lot of bombing and plotting in various places to take over the governments. They plotted with Germany to take over half of Poland and then got the other half in 1945-1946. Just look at the actions of the Afganistan war by the Soviet Union and you will see why it wasn't unreasonable to blame the Communists for it. Hitler knew what the Communists were doing elsewhere and so he took advantage of that. It's easy to look back and say that that bombing wasn't done by the Communists but at that time people were going on the facts such as they were at that time. The German people couldn't do anything once he was in power and they realised their mistake, they were trapped. Don't you think they tried to get rid of him? Afterall there were bombs planted by conspirators and the like, but he seemed to be unable to be killed. Its easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and say that a certain leader should never had been elected, but those German people had to vote based on the information they had at that time which is considerably less than we have today about Hitler and his plans. That is the scary part, that there was a real lack of information which led to him getting elected. The results have been talked about on this forum. There were attempted poisons, sniping at him, and even an attempted bomb at his headquarters but he survived.

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Did they? Do you really think the German people had a full picture of what was going on? I am not excusing the people entirely, but they probably thought Hitler was just exporting the Jews elsewhere.

As if robbing them of their property and deporting them were okay?

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Most people in Germany even up until after 1945 would have scoffed and told you not to be ridiculous if you had told them about the concentration camps.

Yes, and these people often lived within visual distance of a camp. They could smell the stench from the camp when the wind blew toward them. They could see trains full of Jews going in, but only empty trains comming out. The only reason they "didn't know" was because they didn't want to know. But really, they knew and just didn't care.

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Even today there are those people that are misguidely believing that there was no holocaust of the Jews in Europe.

Yes. It is easier for them to deny it than to admit it.

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

The German people couldn't do anything once he was in power and they realised their mistake, they were trapped. Don't you think they tried to get rid of him?

No, the people believed in Hitler and supported him until the very last month or so of WWII.

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Afterall there were bombs planted by conspirators and the like, but he seemed to be unable to be killed.

These attempts on Hitler's life were carried out by the military, not the citizenry. It was not a mass effort, it was a conspiracy by a few who really knew the state of Germany and Hitler's mental status.

Originally Posted by HealzDevo

Its easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and say that a certain leader should never had been elected, but those German people had to vote based on the information they had at that time which is considerably less than we have today about Hitler and his plans. That is the scary part, that there was a real lack of information which led to him getting elected. The results have been talked about on this forum. There were attempted poisons, sniping at him, and even an attempted bomb at his headquarters but he survived.

For all of that, it was always apparent that Hitler's intent was to rob and/or kill the Jews, gypsies, and other "impure" races. It was abundantly clear that Hitler believed in using violence against his opposition at virtually every level. And only a fool could not see that Hitler was intent on taking Germany to war (but admittedly there were a lot of fools). He made promises that the German people wanted to hear, and they didn't ask or want the details on how these promises would be fulfilled. But they knew it was going to be done by taking from others and giving to them.

=S=

Lunatic

[Crazy]

As if robbing them of their property and deporting them were okay?

We're talking about an entire populace. They may have known, but what could they do about it? No average German just trying to eek a living is going to try to change government policy, and it would be even more impossible to get the protest organized enough to change anything. They didn't have a means to change anything, and it's pretty hard to say whether they would have or not.

Yes, and these people often lived within visual distance of a camp. They could smell the stench from the camp when the wind blew toward them. They could see trains full of Jews going in, but only empty trains comming out. The only reason they "didn't know" was because they didn't want to know. But really, they knew and just didn't care.

Once again, we're talking about an entire populace. They ALL lived near concentration camps? They camps were spread throughout all of Germany's new lands, not just in the original country itself. So, let's say there are 9 camps in original Germany. One, they weren't built in the middle of Berlin. They were fairly secluded. I'm willing to bet that no more than 4,000, 5,000 at most, people lived and worked near camps. That's not a large number.

Yes. It is easier for them to deny it than to admit it.

I know several Germans, and none are so deluded as this. Radicals don't indicate the mindset of the whole. Most Germans would rather forget the dark history, but not deny it.

No, the people believed in Hitler and supported him until the very last month or so of WWII.

Perhaps this is because they truly didn't know what horrors Hitler was commiting. Until the camps were discovered and publicized. I'm willing to bet that after people accepted the truth of the camps, they lost faith in Hitler. Or at least most would have.

He made promises that the German people wanted to hear, and they didn't ask or want the details on how these promises would be fulfilled. But they knew it was going to be done by taking from others and giving to them.

While this is somewhat true, why are the Germans exclusively guilty of that? Most nations in WW2, at one point or another, told their people what they wanted to hear. And you don't tell everyone your plan if you intend to go to war, period. It's not aa diabolical scheme. It's just good security.

I'll try to address the whole of your statements in a later post.

However, right now I'll just point out that DACHAU is less than 10 miles from Munich, and the Sachsenhausen camp was very near Berlin, hardly the remote location you suggest. The following map shows the major concentration camps, but their were hundreds of such camps all about Germany. You cannot keep something on that kind of scale much of a secret!


http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/holocamp.html <--- excellent site on the holocaust

Take a look for yourself, many of these camps were so close to major cities there is no way you can argue they were well hidden or remote from the German people.

=S=

Lunatic

[Crazy]

I'd like to point out that most of the camps were concentration, not extermanation, not even concentration/extermination. Which meant that for the most part, mass genocide occured in camps like Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, all of which were outside of original German territory, in former Poland.

The Germans knew that Jews and other minorities were being placed into special camps. But most of the killing was being done away from prying eyes, mostly outside of Germany

Originally Posted by Crazy

I'd like to point out that most of the camps were concentration, not extermanation, not even concentration/extermination. Which meant that for the most part, mass genocide occured in camps like Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, all of which were outside of original German territory, in former Poland.

The Germans knew that Jews and other minorities were being placed into special camps. But most of the killing was being done away from prying eyes, mostly outside of Germany

Death rates in concentration camps were increadibly high. So high that disposal of the bodies was a serious problem and this is what motivated the creation of the "extermination camps". Colera, Typhis, and other chronic deseases along with malnutrition and sever beatings were just as deadly as gas, it just took longer. Mass shootings were also common. Concentration camps were death camps.

=S=

Lunatic

[GermansRGeniuses]

Do you understand that the point of a death camp is to exterminate, and that a concentration camp holds and kills, but its real purpose is to act as a sort of prison and work camp...

[HealzDevo]

Exactly, I am saying that it is impossible for the average population to know of the existence of the extermination camps. Rommel, probably just thought the Jews were being taken to Concentration camps to be looked after and work to support the German Cause. That is why I think he was shocked when he found out the true nature of some of the camps that weren't in Germany. If a top-ranking member of the military of Germany can be shocked by finding out this information as he didn't know it, do you think the German people would be shocked? I think so. A lot of the problem was that in some case, the Jews created a lot of resentment as Jews were seen as money lenders. People who borrowed money may have taken the opportunistic view of dobbing in that person as a Jew so that they didn't have to pay back the money. Even among the figures of Jews slaughtered, it is difficult to know how many genuine Jews were killed, all we know is the total figure for Jews killed.

[HealzDevo]

Jews seemed to be a race that had got off very lightly to the German people as they may have seen Jewish people in the banking and finance industries that seemed to be weathering the storm better than they were. Don't forget Germany was a major manufacturing giant at the time. Also the fact that homosexuals and gypsies were included, it has to be considered that it was only fairly recently that homosexuality was no longer a crime between consenting adults in most countries. Gypsies are considered under vagrants and others and were often jailed and worse by most countries. Britain in its old criminal code which Australia inherited had a clause about vagrants and tramps. Try looking up the US act and I'm sure you'll find a similar clause in there. Therefore Hitler's actions in relation to homosexuality and gypsies were not really that different from the way other countries treated the issue. After all what power did they use to arrest the Hippies of the 1960s and move them on?

Originally Posted by GermansRGeniuses

Do you understand that the point of a death camp is to exterminate, and that a concentration camp holds and kills, but its real purpose is to act as a sort of prison and work camp...

Hmmm... do you understand that the concentration camps were death camps? Prisoners were barely fed, and what food and water they did get was foul. They had almost no medicine. When they got sick they were usually either shot or beaten to death. That the death rates were so high that the Nazi's had a serious problem disposing of the bodies without creating a disease threat to the rest of the German public? That the body disposal problem was what motivated the "final solution" of the extermination camps?

Dachau is listed as a "concentration camp". You say that this means it was primarily a prison. Hmmm...


Dachau - The "Small" Cremetorium ovens built in 1940.


Dachau - Small Cremetorium exterior


Dachau - Large Cremetorium, built in 1942 because the small Crematorium was insufficent to handle the volume of dead.

The next room was about the worst, I believe. Here were four, large, furnaces, the crematorium. As many as three bodies were crammed into each furnace at a time and burned, about 165 a day, we were told. Some of the victims were hanged on the rafters just a few feet from the furnaces, then burned. But deaths too greatly out-numbered the furnace capacity so bodies were piled like sacks of flour in the next room, hundreds of them.
http://mariposa.yosemite.net/mudnguts/page110.htm

How many prisons have six furnace crematoriums? And don't think that this was only a late-in-the war phenomna, the first crematorium (two furnaces) was built in 1940 and the larger unit (four furnaces) in 1942.

The fact is the concentration camps were death camps. The only difference between them and the "extermination camps" was the degree to which they were prepared to deal with the bodies and the method of extermination.

-------

If you really believe the German people did not know what was going on, you need to see Claude Lanzmann's documentary, "Shoah". You can purchase it relatively cheap on Ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/Shoah_W0QQfromZR40QQsojsZ1

(if this link does not work, goto Ebay.com and search on "Shoah")

In this 9.5 hour documentary, you will see that the German people of the time almost always claimed they had no idea about what was going on, but after lengthy and subtle questioning virutally always admitted they in fact did know, and that the chose not to do anthing, or that they supported it. I know you won't believe me, so watch it for yourself and I'm sure you will be convinced that the post-war claims not to have known what was happening by the German bystanders were/are nothing more than self-deception. You will see that the undeniable truth is almost all of them knew what was going on. Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is just participating, knowingly or unknowingly, in deception.

There were somewhere around a hundred concentration camps of one form or another setup by the Nazi's in WWII. There is no way such a thing could have been kept secret.

=S=

Lunatic

[rebel8303]

Ok I think that most Germans did not actually were aware of what was going on.
I also think that those who were aware of this could not do absolutuly nothing.
It is a fact that even Wermacht didn´t like the idea of waffen SS.
But they did not react. Well it was too late to react.
Well we must consider the fact that after te WWI defeat Germans economy had crambled. Well it was too easy for Hitler to blame Jews for this. Many Germans might truly believe that blaming Jews would be a sollution to this problem. Well propaganda help for this a lot.

But I don´t think Lunatic that Germans could know a lot about death camps.
I saw a movie were a german scientist was a asked to develop a chemical to clean rooms easier but they were using that as gas to kill Jews. Well I don´t know about that - it was a movie hehe...

If you really think that you need to watch the movie Shoah, because you are very wrong. There were undoubtedly a few German's who didn't know what was going on, but they were the very small minority.

It's easy to say "I didn't know", even if they did. It's just one more act of cowardice and denial.

[Medvedya]

An easy comment to make in a democratic country.