Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids

[rebel8303]

I really think that the post is out of subject and I'd like to say my opinion.
First of all I agree that the Queen should not apologize for anything.

But..
We can not ease our selves by saying (as I read somewhere in the topic that the Germans could move forces in their cities from where they would eliminate England etc etc.
Moreover we must see what have led Germany to conduct both world wars.
As far world war 2 is concerned it is obvious that Germany had been knocked out of anything that had to do with progress in any domain.
Anyway, the Germans provoked great damage and they cannot demand apologies from anyone
but there are other countries that provoked much damage as well but have the advantage not to have faced the defeat yet so to face punishment as well.
Both England and US have commited many war crimes but noone will say anything against them. After all they won ww2, only to start the cold war and steal the victory of the Russian hands...

Isn't bombing Afganistan and Irak a crime??
But US is a great nation yet...

But there will be a time that it will fall too as every superpower from the begining of time does. Ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, Roman Empire Byzantine Empire, later the European powers that rised only to fall again, the soviet union, the US...
If there is a rise then they 'll be a fall
Just like flying an airplane

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

See my above post.....

What I meant, was "what do you do to win or compete?".

[HealzDevo]

The Cold War was not really Britain and America's fault. It was forced on the US and Britain by the Soviets. The Soviets started the actions that led to tension. I really think Rebel you might want to do a bit of study into the actions of the Soviet Union just after WW2 to understand. The British and Americans were only reacting to a situation in which they had another nation with a fanatic in control, Joseph Stalin. At that time, don't forget that they had fought against Hitler and now it seemed that Hitler might be replaced by an even more dangerous foe, the Soviet Union. Germany was always crippled by manpower problems, however the Soviet Union doesn't have that real problem and as well, Soviet Industry was really gearing up and reaping the benefits of captured German technology. Most of the post-war Migs including the famous Mig-15 were based on this technology. The USSR was yelling out threatening slogans and invading other countries. It was only by the narrowist margins that the Soviet Union through its own actions didn't bring the thing into being a hot war. After all as late as the 1950s-1960s, the Soviet Union was still making threatening gestures such as pointing nuclear missiles at the US from Cuba. For the US and Britain, the Soviet Union was holding an assault rifle firmly aimed & loaded at them. What would have been said if they hadn't acted? The Soviet Union would have grown bolder and bolder through their inaction. Hitler grew powerful through appeasement. The Soviet Union was already potentially powerful and therefore the US and Britain had to make the steps that potentially stopped the USSR growing. It is because of these steps perhaps that the USSR was potentially structurally weakened until it collapsed in 1991. The USSR couldn't beat Britain and America. It really wanted to though, because it saw Democracy as a threat. Communism is an attempt at mind-control and therefore it fails where the people are educated unless there is no other models of government that people can view. This is what the Soviet Union was trying to do, get rid of the competing forms of government. Had it of succeeded, I don't think Rebel would be typing in this forum in Germany today. Computers and the Internet and everything would have been highly regulated and controlled. There would be brutal prisons, where you would be taken if you even dared to look at one of the authorities in a way they didn't like. Communism rules by fear and censorship. As such it was weakened when it was realised that there was no way it would get any further with its present policies. Therefore Rebel, you are perhaps not considering the full situation in the context of history and what had just happened. This is the only way we can make balanced judgements on history when we are looking back. To view them in context of what had just preceded the event, the percieved dangers of action or non-action in the minds of those parties, the actions of both parties in this case. Therefore your judgement shows a little bit of naivety in the fact that both times the US and Britain were dragged into the conflict by the actions of a party that was viciously inconsiderate of human life. I was just saying that it could be a possibility that Germany would do that if it realised it had no chance of keeping its regular facilities unbombed. Also nothing brings home the reality of defeat so well as a bombing raid. Germany was already gearing up for 1946 at the time and therefore was intent on dragging out the conflict as long as possible. Anyway, I think you fail to understand things fully, Hitler and Gobbels were quite skilled in propoganda and thus the city bombing really did weaken their grip on power. It was showing the cracks that had appeared in the Nazi Machine opening into full-blown leaks. Also it forced the Germans to concentrate production on fighters and anti-aircraft guns so that there was a shortage of equipment for the Russian campagin for the Germans. Therefore the bombing raids were one of the reasons, I think Germany was eventually defeated, as German production was occuppied with things other than equipping her front-line troops. As far as your assumption that Germany was knocked out of anything that resembled progress, this is fantasy to think that Germany still wasn't dangereous. Germany still had a lot of her factories, and therefore it could still manufacture the equipment it needed to menace the Allied Bombers, the fact that production was still going on at all was a menance that couldn't be ignored. The enemy had to be weakened one way or another and that was the only real weakness that could be seen. Sometimes it is better to achieve a victory over a rival that plays unfairly like Hitler did, or the Soviet Union, than to lose fairly and be submitted to the horror of one of these regimes. I don't know what part of Germany you are from Rebel, but I suggest you might need to get out and start talking to the survivors of camps such as Aushwitz (Not sure how to spell it), to some survivors if you can find any of Stalin's labour camps to understand what these people had in mind. These people weren't interested in fair play and therefore to beat these ones sometimes unfortantly the rules have to be set aside for the good of all humanity.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont really think that news is true. I have lived in Germany most of my life and have never heard of something that outragious. The Germans understand that Nazi Germany was a dark time in there history and would rather move on and not drag it out in modern day grudges. I think it is just hard to believe what you read on the internet or the news.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh and rebel8303 I dont really think you can say that bombing Iraq was wrong. Take it from someone who is here in Iraq at the time. You do not know what was going on over here, all you see is what is in the news. Saddam needed to go. I have seen first hand the attrocities that he has commited, seen the mass graves and how the money was used only to build a military. Go to Baghdad and you can see this grand palace that looks like it could have been built for Koenig Ludwig II and all around houses made out of cardboard and children playing in there own feces in the streets. The man had to go. Take this from a German serving in the United States Army and serving proudly.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And I dont see the great nations of today like the US, Britain, and yes even modern Germany falling. And again I have to say this for the US again when there is a huge earthquake in China who is the first to offer help the US, the earthquake in Iran even with the relationship problems between the US and Iran did the US offer help? Yes. If there is any nation that is in need of help the US always offers help. But when the US in need of help they all turn there back, and the US always comes out on top again. I think the British for there support of the US, you are great people and I hope the friendship lasts forever. As for the friendship between the Germans and the US, I hope it can be repaired It has been a great friendship over the last 30 years and should not go away.

[HealzDevo]

Don't forget when talking about Britain and the US to talk about Australia and the US as well. We have contributed to a lot of the actions of the US. In Afganistan and Iraq we deployed our highly trained SAS soldiers to help as well as other soldiers. Australia's SAS were singled out for praise by the US Commanders for their service in Afganistan. Therefore we are one of those natures that stands with the US, although and no offense to any Asian neighbours, but with our borders it is in our interests to maintain those relations. The peace protestors must have been hoping for a repeat of 1991. Luckily they didn't get what they wanted... Sadam had shown a potential will to actively support Terrorists, he may even have been actively supporting certain terrorist cells within his country. We don't know as a lot of records have disappeared, although even in peace I think this would have happened. Those records may have been potentially embarrassing to Sadam. Afganistan was the Taliban who seemed to be showing support and tolerating bases of Ossauma Bin Ladin's (Not sure how you spell Osauma) group on their soil. In addition the Taliban were also engaged in the state sponsored group of poppies from which the drug opium comes!!! These two groups showed great problems for the world. Opium is an addictive drug and potentially can kill the user. It is more potent than tobbaco or alcohol at killing. Iraq was sending out a very confusing message, as a lot of evidence seemed to point to Iraq having these weapons. Even still there is doubt on how much had originally survived the first Gulf War. It could be that Sadam had secretly started up his weapons program again. He had the technology imported. All he needed was the raw material from a source that would remain quiet... They did find some things that seem to point to weapons of mass destruction being had by Iraq, but where the main cache or caches are still remains a mystery. There are tantalising accounts though from certain ones which were involved in Iraq's weapons program that it was just dormant and not entirely shut-down... No Sadam was waiting for the world to lose interest again just as they did the last time so he could get on with this process. They believe they found what may be a moving lab in the back of a truck. Sadam was playing a game of deceit on the world, and sooner or later, he may not have needed that deceit, because he would have had the real weapons in his possession. There are differences between the way the US used nuclear weapons to end WW2 with the Japanese; and the way Iraq could potentially use nuclear weapons if it got them. The decision to use nuclear weapons by the US in WW2 was a long-decision process, it wasn't a snap decision I don't think. There would have been a long process of going through and assessing the potential casualities from such a decision. Ultimately however, the US came to the decision that this was a lesser evil than Japan potentially building up again and again behind those walls of theirs. Iraq however, has in the past targeted the Kurds with biological weapons, admittedly the CIA gave them to him, but if this man used biological weapons against his own people, do you think he would debate too long before potentially using Nuclear Missiles from his nuclear bunker against Western targets? Probably not. This is a man who supports a Jihad against Western targets, where there are no zones, no rules of engagement, and no uniforms. All we can hope to do is ruin the lines of supply to these organisations and hope that would slow them down enough to acheive a victory.

[MichaelHenley]

Aah! Attack of the BIIG Posts!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very well said HealzDevo. And yes you are correct I did forget to mention other nations such as Australia. Please forgive me. I dont think many people realize how bad the situation in Iraq was.

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by MichaelHenley

Aah! Attack of the BIIG Posts!

And here comes the migraine

[germanace]

going back to stupid stuff read this

A man who was trying to shoot seven puppies was shot himself when one of the dogs made the .38-caliber revolver discharge, deputies said. Jerry Allen Bradford, 37, of Pensacola, was charged with felony animal cruelty, the Escambia County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday. Bradford was being treated at an undisclosed hospital for the gunshot wound to his wrist, said sheriff's Sgt. Ted Roy. Bradford said he decided to shoot the 3-month-old puppies in the head because he couldn't find another home for the shepherd-mix dogs, according to the sheriff's office. On Monday, he was holding two puppies, one in his arms and another in his left hand, when the dog in his hand wiggled and put its paw on the trigger, making the gun discharge, the sheriff's report said. The revolver and a rifle were seized from the home, deputies said. Deputies found three of the puppies in a shallow grave outside Bradford's home, Roy said. The other four appeared to be in good health and were taken by Escambia County Animal Control, which planned to make them available for adoption. "That should never have to happen," said Bruce Rova, director of the Escambia County Animal Shelter. "There are so many options people have. We'll try to find them a new home."
On a side note: I heard this report on the radio, on the way home from work this morning. It stated that, the people at the shelter had dubbed the puppy that hit the trigger, as "Quick Paw McGraw" :=)

[rebel8303]

I didn't speak of cold war neether of what have many nations offered in the world. I think you all misunderstood me. I spoke of war penalties. I said that such penalties are "offered" only to the defeated sides. I mean that there is not always the good guy that wins a war.
Moreover I believe that every war is bad for any reason. I believe that there always exist an optional solution. (e.g. removing Saddam from Iraq )
I apologize if I sounded offensive in my last post.
DerAdlerIstGelandet I did not say that dictarship is a good thing.
HealzDevo I understand and have read about coldwar very well
No offense taken
(I'm not from Germany I just have chosen this flag because I love bf-109 and Fw-190 so forgive me)

[lesofprimus]

And I think you're an absoulute Moron, not to mention a Collossal S c u m b a g....

Who in Jesus F u c k do u think u are to come here to this peaceful little place, with your Whiney Ass, Pacifistic, 13 Year Old views, and spout off your political opinions..... Talk about Aircraft of WWII if u wanna contribute something..... Not this crap.... I almost vomited while reading ur twisted and unfocused dribblings.....

Freakin Hippies.... I hate the whole lot of em.... This Idiots probably gay too.......

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by rebel8303

I believe that there always exist an optional solution. (e.g. removing Saddam from Iraq )

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot ?

Do you really think that, you freak ? An optional solution to remove a dictator from the country he is ruling ? There is A LONE way to remove a dictator : TO KILL HIM !

Do you really think that you could make Saddam leave Iraq by singing "Give Peace A Chance" ? God damn ! This guy tortured AND murdered thousands of civilans that he suspected of treachery ! Do you really think that he would have left ? In this case, I'll have to agree with Les and say that you're a freaking moron.

[Nonskimmer]

Originally Posted by Maestro

There is A LONE way to remove a dictator : TO KILL HIM !

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Maestro

Do you really think that you could make Saddam leave Iraq by singing "Give Peace A Chance" ? God damn !