Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I too do not believe that the Germans should demand an apology but also again I dont really think that they asked for one. All I am saying is dont believe everything you read.

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Les & Maestro,

Please deal in a civil manner with others. Rebel is certainly entitled to his opinion EVEN IF IT DISAGREES with yours. And leave the bigoted comments about Gays out of it too.

Let me be clear, anymore of this and I will lock this thread and issue warnings. got it?

Kiwimac

Dont think locking the thread is fair on others, issuing warnings will be enough

[Hot Space]

I know I'm a bit daft fellas, but no more of ze swear words here, please

As far as it goes, it's nice to see such a heated conversation - I'm all for it

Hot Space

[HealzDevo]

Please also remember that the Germans were given repeated warnings, as were the Russians on their actions. These parties chose to ignore those warnings. So for that matter did Sadam, one Gulf War and crippling sanctions to his country did nothing to encourage respect within him for the International Community. If anything they made him more bitter. Ultimately it would have good to have seen him removed in 1991, but as they say better late than never. He was using the International Community against itself, and manipulating it. It seems France is fully within the power of Sadam. Wonder whether the US and Britain should be investigating the French as they were the most vehmently opposed to the Iraq War this time. Maybe they have something to hide... A dirty secret perhaps...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can tell you one thing. Most of the crates here on the old abandoned Iraqi Airfield where I am serving right now are written in French and have Paris written all over them. These crates contained Missles and other weapons. Weapons were strictly forbiden to be sold to Iraq under the UN sanctions but somehow they ended up in Iraq. I wonder how that is? I think the French were so much against the war because they did not want there arms dealing to be found out.

My guess is that some German group, not the government, is asking for the apology. But they don't derserve it because of Germany's conduct during the war. Had Germany never fire bombed London or other British cities, never razed Polish and Russian cities and towns, never committed atrocities agains the Jews and other ethnic minorities, and in general conducted the war in a civilized manner, then they might have a leg to stand on. Since they didn't they don't.

As for Iraq, well there are a lot of issues here. I think we in the USA should be very upset about Bush's having taken us to war on the basis of the existance of WMD's when in fact there weren't any. But this does not mean we should not have sought regime change, just that the President should not decieve us about why he is doing something.

There is a lot of hippocracy in the whole war in Iraq and against Saddam. We supported him when he was using WMD's against the Iranians and we looked the other way when he used them against the Kurds. We gave him much of that technology because we didn't like Iran.

We didn't take down Saddam and try to occupy Iraq in the first gulf war for the reasons stated by Pres. Bush Sr. in a 1998 Time magazine interview:

While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome. - Pres. Bush Sr.

In his book, "A World Transformed", he says pretty much the same thing, and points out that there was "no viable exit strategy".

As I see it, the problem with the war in Iraq is it assumes the Moslim's will want and support a Western style democracy. However this is in conflict with the teachings of Islam, which support either a relgious theocracy (ala Iran) or a religiously based tribal monarchy (ala Saudi Arabia). Islamic law is so constrictive it leaves little room for what we call "freedom".

For these reasons, I believe in the end, Iraq will degenerate into a civil war, if it has not already (that's an issue for debate). The country is too divided on to many basic issues, and there is too much wealth at stake.

The big problem is that if Iraq does degenerate into civil war, it is likely to spread to the other west friendly Arabian and Islamic states. It would not surprise me to see such a civil war touch off civil wars in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, possibly Jordan and other middle eastern contries, and maybe even re-ignite the war in Afghanistan. And a the same time, there is an effective civil war going on in Chechnya, the Ukrain is on the brink, and Russia has undergone a coup from the top with Putin reverting that country into a dictatorship. Civil war in these other places may lead to civil war in Russia.

This is a dangerous time.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well as for no WMD's have you watched the news. In Falludja they have found anthrax. Sadam did have WMD's, please trust me on this I have seen eneogh things over here that prove to me that he does however he had plenty of time to get it out to other countries like Syria. The border is so porus that you can not contain it all. Trust me he had the WMD's. As for Bush I think his greatest fault in this war is the fact that he has no exit strategy. We will be here for many years to come and in the 1 and half I have left in the army I expect to return to Iraq atleast one more time. As for the country breaking out in civil war it basically already has and I only see it getting worse. The area that I am in is predominatly sunni and they do not except the Sheites and they are constantly fighting and then north past the mountains near Turkey you have the Kurds who have there own official army and they want to reclaim Kurdistan. It is very volotile here right now at the moment and there is no end in site. Do I feel it was unjust? No I believe in what we are doing here.

Getting back to the topic...

Here's a site that whines about the "terror bombing" used against Germany in WWII.

http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/terrorbombing.htm

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Well as for no WMD's have you watched the news. In Falludja they have found anthrax. Sadam did have WMD's, please trust me on this I have seen eneogh things over here that prove to me that he does however he had plenty of time to get it out to other countries like Syria. The border is so porus that you can not contain it all. Trust me he had the WMD's. As for Bush I think his greatest fault in this war is the fact that he has no exit strategy. We will be here for many years to come and in the 1 and half I have left in the army I expect to return to Iraq atleast one more time. As for the country breaking out in civil war it basically already has and I only see it getting worse. The area that I am in is predominatly sunni and they do not except the Sheites and they are constantly fighting and then north past the mountains near Turkey you have the Kurds who have there own official army and they want to reclaim Kurdistan. It is very volotile here right now at the moment and there is no end in site. Do I feel it was unjust? No I believe in what we are doing here.

But Pres. Bush claimed there were 1000's of tons of chemical and bio weapons. This has pretty much been proven false.

It's not a matter of just or unjust really. The issue is what will the consquences be? If it does turn to civil war in Iraq that spreads to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and perhaps other countries as well, the cost will have been tremendous and nothing positive will have been accomplished.
Pres. Bush is playing a very dangerous game, and I fear he does not appreciate the mentality of the Moslims and the Islamic faith.

=S=

Lunatic

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I too am not really a Bush fan, hell I voted for Kerry, however I dont expect you to fully understand it unless you have experienced Iraq for yourself. And as for the 1000's of tons, please just trust me they were here. I have been to former chemical weapons factories here and seen what was going on for myself. As for the muslims I do not wish to offend anyone because I believe a man is made up what is in side of him and not what religion, race, or nationality the man is. However I do have to say something about the muslim and islamic faith, they demand that when you come to there country you have to be like them and you can practice your faith or way (now I know that is not all muslim or islamic countries) but when they come to other peoples countries they expect them to go out of there way to allow them to practice there ways. In some of these middle eastern countries you can not even think of building a christian church however when they tried to build a mosque in my mothers town in Germany and the city counsel denied them the building permit they screamed descrimination and nazi and threatened to protest violently. Ofcourse in the end the mosque was built and now at certain times of the day over loud speaker you hear muslim prayer blasting through the town. I think this is wrong and I am not saying that it is the peoples fault but as for the governments of these nations they too do not respect or appreciate our ways. I hope I did not offend anyone by this statement I was just making some observations.

[Nonskimmer]

Well you didn't offend me, because I happen to agree with you 100 percent.
Facts are facts. It's as simple as that.

[kiwimac]

DerAdler,

Strange then that both the Un & US weapons inspectors have said that Hussein had no WMD. Fact is, the US should never have gone into Iraq.

Kiwimac

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well it's good that the iraq is free from sadam...............

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

well it's good that the iraq is free from sadam...............

Agreed. The shame is that he was not removed back in the early-mid 80's.

[cheddar cheese]

Also agreed.