Greatest WWII Military Commanders: Updated

[Njaco]

I would read the history again, starling.

Operation Lightfoot (2d El Alamein) did not go exactly as planned by Monty.

The first day 51st Highland barely advanced, 1st SA was stopped with heavy casualties, and the minefields were barely crossed. 1st Armoured only had one gap to go thru and traffic was clogged.

Second day 10th Armoured was fully exposed to AT gunners on Miteirya Ridge and much of the rest of Monty's tanks were stuck in traffic and minefields.

Third day 10th Armoured was being hammered so badly that Major General Gatehouse ordered his tanks back to Miteirya Ridge. The Italians made the 7th Armoured and 50th Div suffer for what little they gained. Monty decided to cancel attacks by the 2d NZ Div and 10th Armoured. Monty then decided to modify 'Lightfoot' with a new operation, 'Supercharge' and concentrated his attacks along the coast (shades of Rommel?) and eventually broke free. But even then, it was difficult. The 9th Armoured brigade was almost decimated in this new attack, losing 75 out of 94 tanks!

The point being that with overwhelming numbers of men and guns, ample fuel, superiority of the air and a willingness to sacrifice and be flexible, anybody can win. What made Monty such a force was getting the troops ready in the weeks before El Alamein.

Rommel didn't join the battle until the 3d day. All respects to Monty, if Rommel had the same forces and reserves as Monty I wonder what the outcome would have been.

and to support Parsifal, this is what I posted for 6 March

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2...o-6116-49.html (This day in the war in Europe 65 years ago)

NORTH AFRICA: Feldmarschall Rommel, with a mixed German / Italian force, launched an expected attack on the Mareth Line near Medenine, Tunisia. There were 4 thrusts by Rommel toward Medenine, which were repulsed by the Britsh Eighth Army. It was concieved as the second phase of a counter-attack which began with the Battle of Kasserine Pass last month.
....The Desert Fox could not even surprise the Allies for they had broken his coded messages and seen his tanks on the move. Allied strengths had quadrupled in the last 10 days, and this gave Eighth Army a decisive strength on the battlefield. Rommel had no more than 160 tanks against his enemy's 400 and with 3 fighters wings operating from forward airfields, the Allies had air superiority. 35 Allied planes strafed and bombed installations in the Mareth Line as Rommel's sttack was defeated.
....When the attack began, Montgomery was waiting in well-sited defensive positions. The British had time to camuouflage a line of AA guns across Rommel's path. Cool British gunners held their fire until the panzers were within close range of the hidden guns, then loosed a holocaust of armour-piercing shells. The Germans were soon pinned down and subjected to a withering assault from tanks and the air. The British used only one squadron of tanks at Medenine, but their AA guns cost Rommel 52 of his panzers. Rommel renewed the attack in the afternoon and, once again, failed to make any headway against the thick defenses. By the end of the day Rommel had less than 100 tanks left. The British had blunted the attack and in doing so may have found the tactic that could stop the panzers: massed artillery and AA fire combined with air raids.

[parsifal]

Another small point is that thje operational plan for Medenine was not even Rommels, it was the result of planning by the italian general Messe, with Rommel essentially acquiescing so as to allow troops under his (Rommels) command to participate. There was also some contribution to the plan by Ziegler. Rommel did endorse the plan, so he bears some responsibility, despite his being quite ill at the time. But neither Messe (who was a good defensive general) nor Rommel had any great expectations about the results of this initiative. The entire Panzer Corps was more than 67% understrength at this time, attacking with a combined tank strength of just 141 tanks and air support not exceeding 80 aircraft.

The british deployed a full corps strength to repel this, consisting of 2 NZ, two other Infantry Brigades (directly involved, , and two armoured brigadesalong a front of just 43000 yards, at right angles to the known MLA of Rommels forces. Supporting the Infantry in this defensive line were 810 medium and field artillery pieces, including considerable numbers of the new 17 pdr AT guns

Montgomery issued orders that expressly forbade the Allies from pursuing the retreating Germans after the battle, despite his overwhelming numerical superiority.

Most of this material is from very general references, including "history Of the Second World War" and Eddie Bauers "History Of WWII"

[Njaco]

Most of this material is from very general references, including "history Of the Second World War" and Eddie Bauers "History Of WWII"

same here, from

"War in Europe: North African Struggle" by Edwin P. Hoyt
"World War II Battle Plans" by Stephen Badsey
"21st Panzer Division: Rommel's Afrika Korps Spearhead" by Chris Ellis
"Campaigns of WWII: Day by Day" by Chris Bishop & Chris Mc Nab

Starling, if you can, grab one or two of these books and check them out.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Very impressive.

Im not saying that Rommel was not without fault. What I really object to is mindless criticism not based on any subjective analysis at all. The man deserves better respect than thet, just the same as Monty does for his exploites as well.

I often have wondered what would have happened if Rommel had survived the war. What would have been the effect of his commentary to the post war histories???

I completely agree. Rommel was not perfect as some people like to believe, but I do agree with you on the respect issue.

I too often wonder what would have happened. I would like to think he would have helped rebuild Germany. He was loved by the people, so he might have been able to do a lot of good.

Originally Posted by freebird

He probably would have made some trouble for the post-war balance in East Germany. He seems to be the kind to speak his mind regardless of the consequences.

I wonder if he would have been involved in an "unfortunate accident" if he was in East Germany? Like Patton.....

He would not have been in East Germany. He was from near Ulm which is near Stuttgart. His son became mayor of Stuttgart from 1974 to 1996. All in West Germany.

Patton was not in East Geramny either. Patton was in an accident near Neckarstadt and died in Heidelberg. Both in West Germany.

Interesting tidbit Pattons son George Patton IV and Rommels son Manfred Rommel were both born on the same day, December 24th. George Patton IV was in command of the 2nd Armored Division in Stuttgart at the same time that Manfred Rommel was the mayor of Stuttgart.

Both George Patton IV and Manfred Rommel became very very good friends during that time and did a lot for German/American relations.

[Njaco]

Thanks, Adler, did not know that. That is eerie.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kruska

As far as I know, Parkinson disease is inherited, Manfred Rommel his son, suffers from it since he is 68/70

Actually he is 80 years old now.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by starling

oh come along gentlemen,monty kicked rommel at alamein,and then kicked him for 1200miles across north africa.and then kicked his arse at medenine.i suppose you will twist this around,poor old rommel.yours,starling.
i also know a very close relative of sir brian horrocks,c.o of different formations in the desert and ending up most famousley as xxx corps commander.yours,starling .

I will not even begin to touch this post. As Kruska has stated I applaud your national pride (I think everyone should have it), but there is much for you to learn outside of everything British.

You should try it sometime...

Originally Posted by starling

are you missing mareth out for other reasons kruska.
there were many soldiers from the commmonwealth as well as british soldiers.they fought and died to rid the world of a megalomaniac.or madman.

Did you know that Americans, French, Russians, Australians, Canadians, South Africans, and many many nore nations fought against Germany to?

Just wondering if you actually know this.

Originally Posted by starling

commanders in private.rommel ignored manyunits and chastised officers in the open.

Sources and quotes please.

Originally Posted by starling

8th army soldiers trusted monty.yours,starling.

Was he the only commander that was trusted by his men.

Rommel was loved and trusted by his men.

I am sure Patton was trusted by his men.

I am sure there are hundreds of commanders from many different countries that were trusted and loved by their men.

Originally Posted by starling

t.v programme on yesterday,where rommels a.d.c told of rommel having a go at an officer,in front of his men.the a.d.c. said this was simply not right.and not reading wiki or google,immsmc,50div holding either the 90th light and one pz div,at mareth,and sending the nz div,1st armd div and i believe the 8th armd bde,along with lt.gen.horrocks and acting a.v.m harry broadhurst.this was the left hook behind i believe a range of mountains.this was the first blitz attack monty had ordered horrocks to commit.several sqdrns of p40,s and hurricanes attacked with bombs and mg and cannon,along with a heavy arty barrage,which i believe allowed the 1st armd div to breach and fan out,forcing the german units to retreat from mareth and run away northward.this was a battle of manourve,ordered by monty.yours,starling.

Starling if you think that Rommel was the only commander to get into an arguement with another commander in public, then you are very naive or have never been around the military.

I think you actually need to do some research. Try going outside of the box and being a bit more neutral in your research. You might actually be surprised at what you find.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Actually he is 80 years old now.

Yes indeed, I think he will be 80 in December this year, and he's taking a dozen tablets a day since he's 73 or 74. It's quite striking that he starts to look more and more like his father the older he gets.

Regards
Kruska

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Kruska

Yes indeed, I think he will be 80 in December this year, and he's taking a dozen tablets a day since he's 73 or 74. It's quite striking that he starts to look more and more like his father the older he gets.

Regards
Kruska

I agree

[freebird]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

He would not have been in East Germany. He was from near Ulm which is near Stuttgart. His son became mayor of Stuttgart from 1974 to 1996. All in West Germany.

Patton was not in East Geramny either. Patton was in an accident near Neckarstadt and died in Heidelberg. Both in West Germany.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I didn't mean to imply that Patton was in East Germany. I was referring to the rumour that Patton was assasinated by {someone?} as he was very dangerous to the developing "cold war detente". He had no love for Stalin & our "allies", he advocated continuing the war to stamp out communism {using the bomb if needed}

I don't know how much was conspiracy theory, but his death cetainly was suspicious.

As to Rommel, if he was from the west then it would be different. I mentioned East Germany because under the Soviets many "charismatic figures" from Poland & the other new satellites were "liquidated" {Stalin did not want any Polish, German, Czech or Hungarian "national heros", who could be a focus for rebellion.

[starling]

my posts are about firstly the battle of medenine ie the defence of this place,while being attacked by a pz corps.10pz.div,15pz.div,21pz.div,and 90th light div,the 8th army kicked rommel in the face,big time and made rommel run away.
secondly,the battle of mareth;the left hook.see my post written a few posts ago.yours,starling. .p.s do not try to tie me in knots,allow me the time to respond to each one.i do not understand how to pick out bits and stick on my responses.lee. .

[parsifal]

my posts are about firstly the battle of medenine ie the defence of this place,while being attacked by a pz corps.10pz.div,15pz.div,21pz.div,and 90th light div,the 8th army kicked rommel in the face,big time and made rommel run away.

A piece of advice, if you dont want people to really start getting rough with you, choose your language a bit more carefully. Instead of saying " "kicked Rommel in the face", I suggest a more appropriate way of describing the outcome as "forced Rommel to withdraw" or even "Rommel was defeated". If you couch your replies wih a certain amount of respect, you will improve your credibility and peole wont get rough with you as much. Having said that, there are people on this forum that, if you cross them even a little, they are going to get stuck into you anyway. Get used to that. This place has a LOT% of knowledge, and you will make some good friends if you are patient.
Now, the truth of medenine needs you to do some background reading. Myself and Njaco have each given you a few basic WWII references that you might want to look at , perhaps in your local library. The NZ history is also on line, so you can do some Google searching as well. You will not need to go far to find the truth about medenine.

The truth is that Medenine was Rommels last battle in North Africa. Moreover, the actual plan, and the actual tactical handling were not his own. Rommel was so ill that within 3 days he had left North Africa, for good.

The battle plan was doomed from the start for a whole range of reasons. Monty did read the plan very well, and fought it on his terms, but the outcome could hardly have been different, no matter what either General did. It was incidentally, planned as nothing more than a spoiling attack, nothing more, an attack designed to gain time for the Mareth defences to be put into place. In this sense the assault was a resounding success for the Axis, because the British did not move to attack the mareth position for nearly a month. The medenine operation was the strategy of desperation really. And its aftermath was not a resounding success for the Allies. Once again they allowed the Axis remnants to slip away, unpursued, and largely intact, to fight yet more battles, for another 2 months in the theatre.


secondly,the battle of mareth;the left hook.see my post written a few posts ago.yours,starling. .

Mareth was fought nearly a mjonth later, after Rommel had left the theatre sick. Here, and at Wadi Akarit, it was fought against mainly italian formations, who showedf their mettle and fought very well indeed. The allies won, but it was a mark of meticulous planning rather than any inspred geeralship that won these battles. Moreover by this stage Monty could start to rely on the abilities of his lieutenants to a much greater extent. Men such as Horrocks and Tuker began to shine from the ranks in eight army.

p.s do not try to tie me in knots,allow me the time to respond to each one.i do not understand how to pick out bits and stick on my responses.leeThe replies to your rather aggressive posts are very restrained compared to some that i have seen. You are very lucky these guys have not gotten stuck into you like some in this forum would. i think thats because they can see that you dont have a lot of experience. But you have been corrected several times, and advised to check your facts several times, but you dont seem to be listening. Eventually, the patience of the forum members is going to wear thin and all hell is going to break loose.

If you are going to make explosive posts, you7 need to be well researched and knowledgeable on a subject. If you dont, yoou are going to come across as flippant, and I will predict you wont last long in this place.

What bits do youo not understand. I am not the best person to give you advice about how to post attachm,ents, but perhaps one of the moderators or other forum members can help. If you cant find better help, i will tell you what I kknow, but youor question needs to be more specific.

[Kruska]

Hello starling,

I think that parsifal has put it very professionally and friendly to you. So please take his advice and read on the topic more into detail or forward questions or your (reasonable) opinion to the subject.

BTW every time I read and see your avatar flag and forum name I do have to grine a bit. One of my favorite ww2 movies (based not on true accounts as I had to find out painfully a week ago , Njaco even thought it was a documentary ) is “The Eagle has Landed” where this Irish agent working for the Germans is named Starling.

Regards
Kruska

[starling]

yes,but i am an avid ornitholigist,and starlings are beautiful,but i will change later today.is sparrow o.k.yours,lee.

[Kruska]

Originally Posted by starling

yes,but i am an avid ornitholigist,and starlings are beautiful,but i will change later today.is sparrow o.k.yours,lee.

Hello starling,

Sparrow sounds fine, but why take away my amusement in regards to starling?

Regards
Kruska