Greatest WWII Military Commanders: Updated

[starling]

cheers parcifal.i understood horrocks was o.c.x111 corps.i also read that x111 corps,was stripped of its transport,to supply xxxcorps.
we must also remember that as rommel retreated,his pioneers,or whatever german engineers r called destroyed docks,harbours etc,tobruck,benghasi,tripoli,were all heavily smashed up.do not forget this.8th army did have problems not dissimilar to the africa corps.starling.

[starling]

cannot find any sites giving the so called ultra info monty got in advance of the africa corps attack on him at medenine.i can only find sites involving areal recon.very interesting is this.starling.

[parsifal]

As far as I know, 8th army's supply problems, whilst not small (they advanced over 1400 miles in 3 months) were quite well managed. The British built a railway link from the railhead at Matruh, to Tobruk in a very short space of time. Dont know when Tobruk and Benghazi were returned to operations, but neiuther was it a big problem. The British made full use of the Via Balbia, and were far better placed as far as the availability of supply trucks were concerned. I have never read that there were severe supply problems for the British in the cyrenaican Theatre. Now, that just didnt happen, the british paid a lot of attention to logistics, which is something the germans did not do. Even if they had had a bigger supply tail to call on, i doubt the germans would have done as good a job as the british in this particular area of warfare.

As the 8th Army approached Tripoli, however, things started to get a little tense, the British by then were starting to reach the end of their supply lines, and had to capture Tripoli to ease this problem. The Brits captured tripoli 23-01-43, and as you say the port facilities had been demolished. However, it was not so comprehensive as you suggest. The first steamer entered the harbour 26-01-43, and was more or less restored to full capacity by 04-02-43

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by starling

cannot find any sites giving the so called ultra info monty got in advance of the africa corps attack on him at medenine.i can only find sites involving areal recon.very interesting is this.starling.

Try this link

The North African Campaign Of World War II

It does not give specific details on the effect of Ultrs on medennine, however, it does say that towards the end of the North African Campaign, (ie after Alam halfa) the Allies were receiving Ultra intelligence that was of benefit from a battlefield perspective

[freebird]

Originally Posted by starling

Instead of writing scathing letters to marshal,perhaps eisenhower should have been up the front with his commanders,putting the schoolboy remarks right,that he had written to marshal beforehand.yours,starling.

What are you getting at Starling? Are you comparing Monty, Rommel & Patton in their performance in North Africa to that of Ike?

[starling]

well,all i can find,as well as others,is no specific dates for the ultra intell,just remarks on google,etc.
my personal opinion is that rommel was simply out generalled,by monty,when rommel attacked medenine.i did find a site quoting monty,he expected rommel to lash out at 8th army,because rommel undrstood that supplying large formations was indeed very difficult.i believe rommels intel said 51st highland div and 7th armd div,were the 2 formations,leading 8th army.
unfortunately for rommel,monty did pre-empt him,and bought up other units, new zealand div and 4th armd bde,and thoroughly defeated rommel,and his africa corps,who had all sworn allegance to hitler.
i never mentioned patton,although i have nothing but praise for him,he was perhaps the finest cavalry general in the allied line up.yours,starling.p.s.i just wish we knew the so called ultra dates.

[parsifal]

suggest you read the article I attached to my last post. The allies were receiving direct battlefield advantages in the latter stages of the NA campaign, and specifically from Alam halfa and onwards.

Also Rommel was not even in direct control of the formation, nor was it even his own plan. He is guilty of simply acquiescing, and allowing German units to be committed to the attack.

Finally, medennine was only ever meant to be a spoiling attack, which it partially was. It allowed the axis two weeks grace, in which to get into position, and then resist the allies push, with Italian units, for the most part, no less

[Bigxiko]

my vote is with Rommel and Montgomery

[starling]

all the wiki info suggests rommel was indeed in command of the forces;10pz div,15pz div,21pz div,90th light div,164 div and italian units,that attacked monty,although google suggests rommmel was a bit sickly.
but we must also remember that monty was gatherng supplies with which to attack mareth.yours,starling

[starling]

this battle was imho the best-executed brief defensive battle of ww2.invigorated by their spectacular performance at kasserine,rommel and messe,concentrated the africa corps and 10th pz div,in the matmata hills,while mounting a feint attack by mobile infantry from the north.the axis attack was a disaster.starling.

[starling]

so,does anyone know the o.o.b for montys attack at the mareth line.i know the 4th indian div,less one bde,was present in the british attack.starling.

[parsifal]

Medennine was a carefully prepred and sucessful defensive battle, but it is contentious to say it was the best defensive battle of the war. There are a lot of battles, long and short, fought defensively that many might argue are comparable

To name a few, in no particular order

Kerala
Kokoda
Cassino
Alam Halfa
Stalingrad
Kursk (Russian)
Bataan
Guadacanal
Bastogne
British defence at Arnhem
Rommels defensive/offensive battles at Gazala, and earlier against battleaxe
Defence Of Tobruk
American defensive at midway
American CAP defences at Phil Sea
Japanese defence at okinawa

Etc etc

[Danielmellbin]

I've gone with the best as I see them from each Country.

Mannstein
Patton
Yamamoto
Montgomery
Lascar (not on list - Romania)
Mannerheim
Messe (not on list - Italy)
Juin (not on list - France)
Anders (not on list - Poland)
Zhukov
Blamey (not on list - Australia)
Freyberg (not on list - New Zealand (inspite of his blunder at Crete))
Smuts (not on list - South Africa)
Veress (not on list - Hungary)

But the best of the best is IMO still by far Mannstein.

[Danielmellbin]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Medennine was a carefully prepred and sucessful defensive battle, but it is contentious to say it was the best defensive battle of the war. There are a lot of battles, long and short, fought defensively that many might argue are comparable

To name a few, in no particular order

Kerala
Kokoda
Cassino
Alam Halfa
Stalingrad
Kursk (Russian)
Bataan
Guadacanal
Bastogne
British defence at Arnhem
Rommels defensive/offensive battles at Gazala, and earlier against battleaxe
Defence Of Tobruk
American defensive at midway
American CAP defences at Phil Sea
Japanese defence at okinawa

Etc etc

Stalingrad and Bastogne have to take my prize here (perhaps Cassino aswell)!