Hitler and Stalin

[FLYBOYJ]

[Soren]

[delcyros]

Well, a comparison between Hitler and Stalin is very difficult. As for the term "evil" We would need to trace it back to it´s origin. At medieval age it was a very common term for any enemies. That clearly doesn´t work for a "evil" Hitler (and he was atheistic, like Stalin...). His view of subhuman (nongermanic) races originated not from his own mind, also. You can easily trace it back to the late 19th century and a phaenomen called "sozial darwinism". In this way it was also overtaken from Stalin later (with all subhuman what isn´t slavic). I am archaeologist, so I can disprove all such theories with ease. What really makes him "evil" is the quality of crime done by his ideas. It was uncomperable to anything done earlier in history (maybe with the exception of assyrian strategy in mid 2nd century BC, but that´s another story). And even it´s quantity is second only to Stalins crimes (but Nazigermany crimes are concentrated in a very narrow timeframe). The first victims in concentration camps have been germans, who refused his ideas. (as for Stalin) some crimes of both regimes are understandable from a historic point of view, only...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

the only thing I can say to the subject is that they are both in the best place they can be: HELL!

[Nonskimmer]

We hope.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah I hope not to find out either.

[plan_D]

Hitler and Stalin were both brutal men but a major difference is that a desperate situation made Stalin a realist, where as a desperate situation made Hitler a fantasist.
The Iron Fist ruling the Soviet Union gave way in many circumstances to make a better fighting force out of the Red Army. Tank design in the Soviet Union was very open, many designs were produced which Stalin would then approve. Hitler would order a kind of tank [which would normally be huge and a waste] and always kept his rule. The same applies for tactical thinking, the mistakes of 1941 in Russia were Stalin's fault and Stalin's alone. After that, he left it to his Generals to do the thinking and him to do the approving.
Both were brutal but Stalin murdered many more people than Hitler. Both men dispised one another but had respect for each others brutal attitude. After July 1944 Hitler had become more paranoid than ever before about people plotting against him. Hitler gave harsh punishments to those he suspected of conspiracy but in the Soviet Union, Stalin kept such a harsh rule that no one would ever think of conspiracy.

In World War 2 though, the harsh totalarian rule of the Soviet Union was needed for no democracy was willing to give so many lives. To beat a fascist state as bad as Germany, you needed an even harsher 'Communist' state such as the Soviet Union.

And Stalin was short but he was no push over in a fight. He was of a very big build.

[Maestro]

Yeah, I saw an old (but short) film about Stalin. He was walking in is garden, looking at his trees. He looked short but quite large.

[plan_D]

From what I have read about him, he felt inferior because of his small size from a young age. He gave himself a reputation at his school for being ruthless, he soon earned the title of the toughest in his class.

[Nonskimmer]

Didn't he wrestle in his youth?

[plan_D]

I don't know. Nor do I know if you're asking seriously but what I do know is that he beat the living crap out of people...to earn that title.

[Nonskimmer]

No, I was being quite serious. I'm sure I've read that.

[trackend]

All I can say is that as far as brutal mad men goes it always seems strange that lots of people who are claimed to be mad and commit henous crimes against other humans are never quite mad enough to pick on somebody bigger than thereselves they all ways have a go at the weak or vunerable or in Adolfs case have some muscle do it for him.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just a question, does anyone know how many plots there were to assassinate Hitler. I know of a deffinate 2 but my understanding is there were more, but I am not sure.

The obvious being the Staufenberg event.

The other being the attempt by Maurice Bavaud, the Swiss seminary who plotted to shoot Hitler with a .25 pistol and he needed to be within 25ft of Hitler for it too kill him but Hitler walked down the wrong side of the street in Munich in commemoration of the Beer Hall Putsch.

Supposed Plot members of the Stauffenberg Bomb Plot on 20 July 1944

Generaloberst i.G. Ludwig Beck, (*1880, †1944)
Oberstleutnant Robert Bernardis, (*1908 †1944)
Botschaftsrat a.D. Albrecht Graf von Bernstorff
Major Hans Jürgen Graf von Blumenthal
Oberstleutnant i.G. Hasso von Boehmer
Eugen Bolz, former Staatspräsident of Württemberg, (*1881 †1945)
Oberstleutnant Georg Freiherr von Boeselager
Philipp Freiherr von Boeselager
Claus Bonhoeffer, Rechtsanwalt
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Pfarrer und Mitglied der Bekennenden Kirche, (*1906 †1945)
Randolf Freiherr von Breidbach-Bürresheim
Dr. Eduard Brücklmeier, Legationsrat im Auswärtigen Amt
Oscar Caminecci, Landwirt
Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, Chef des deutschen militärischen Nachrichtendienstes
Walter-Wilhelm Cramer, Industrieller
Professor Alfred Delp, Pater S.J., (*1907 †1945)
Oberregierungsrat Dr. Wilhelm Dieckmann
Heinrich Graf zu Dohna-Tolksdorf, Gutsbesitzer
Reichsgerichtsrat Hans von Dohnanyi
Oberleutnant Hans Martin Dorsch
Hauptmann Max-Ulrich Graf von Drechsel
Oberstleutnant Hans Otto Erdmann
Professor Fritz Elsas, ehemaliger zweiter Bürgermeister von Berlin
Oberstleutnant i.G. Karl-Heinz Engelhorn
Alexander Freiherr von Falkenhausen, Militärbefehlshaber von Belgien und Nordfrankreich, (*1878 †1966)
General der Nachrichtentruppe Erich Fellgiebel, (*1886 †1944)
Oberst i.G. Eberhard Finckh (*1899 - †1944)
Professor Max Fleischmann
Rechtsanwalt Reinhold Frank
Ehrengard Frank-Schultz
Walter Frick, Kaufmann
Oberst i.G. Wessel Freiherr von Freytag-Loringhoven
Hauptmann Ludwig Gehre
Hans Bernd Gisevius, (*1904 †1974)
Erich Gloeden, Architekt
Elisabeth Charlotte Gloeden, Ehefrau
Fritz Goerdeler, Stadtkämmerer von Königsberg
Nikolaus Groß, Redakteur, (*1898 †1945)
Oberst i.G. Helmuth Groscurth
Carl Ludwig Freiherr von Guttenberg, Landwirt
Max Habermann, christlicher Gewerkschaftsführer
Hans Bernd von Haeften, Legationsrat im Auswärtigen Amt
Oberleutnant Werner von Haeften, (*1908, †1944)
Syndikus Albrecht von Hagen, (*1904, †1944)
Oberst Kurt Hahn
Nikolaus-Christoph von Halem, Kaufmann
Staatssekretär a.D. Eduard Hamm, (*1879 †1944)
Oberst i.G. Georg Hansen
Oberst i.G. Bodo von Harbow
Regierungspräsident a.D. Ernst von Harnack
Generalleutnant Paul von Hase, Kommandant von Berlin, (*1885 †1944)
Ulrich von Hassell, ehemaliger deutscher Botschafter in Rom, (*1881 †1944)
Theodor Haubach, führender Sozialdemokrat
Professor Albrecht-Georg Haushofer
Major i.G. Egberd Hayessen
Wolf-Heinrich Graf von Helldorf, Polizeipräsident von Berlin
Generalmajor Otto Herfurth
Andreas Hermes, Reichsminister für Ernährung und Landwirtschaft a. D., (*1878 †1964)
Generaloberst Erich Hoepner, (*1886 †1944)
Oberstleutnant Dr. Cäsar von Hofacker, (*1896 †1944)
Major Roland von Hößlin
Otto Hübner, Versicherungsdirektor
Oberst Friedrich Gustav Jaeger, (*1895, †1944)
Max Jennewein, Mechaniker
Professor Jens-Peter Jessen
Hans John, Jurist
Studienrat Hermann Kaiser
Jakob Kaiser, (*1888 †1961)
Staatssekretär a.D. Franz Kempner
Otto Kiep, Gesandter
Georg Conrad Kießling, Landwirt
Oberstleutnant Bernhard Klamroth
Georg-Johannes Klamroth, Kaufmann
Hauptmann Friedrich Karl Klausing, (*1920 †1944)
Ewald von Kleist-Schmenzin, (*1890 †1945)
Ewald-Heinrich von Kleist, (*1922)
Major Gerhard Knaack
Dr. Hans Koch, Rechtsanwalt, (*1893 †1945)
Heinrich Körner, Gewerkschaftsführer
Korvettenkapitän Alfred Kranzfelder
Legationsrat Richard Kuenzer
Elise Auguste Kutznitzki, geb. von Liliencron
Oberstleutnant Fritz von der Lancken, Internatsleiter
Carl Langbehn, Rechtsanwalt
Dr. Julius Leber, Sozialdemokrat, (*1891 †1945)
Heinrich Graf von Lehndorff-Steinort, Landwirt
Syndikus Dr. Paul Lejeune-Jung, (*1882 †1944)
Bernhard Letterhaus, Führer der katholischen Arbeitergemeinde, (*1894 †1944)
Franz Leuninger, ehemaliger Generalsekretär des christlichen Metallarbeiter-Verbandes
Wilhelm Leuschner, führender Sozialdemokrat, ehemaliger hessischer Innenminister
General der Artillerie Fritz Lindemann
Oberst i.G. Ottfried von Linstow
Paul Löbe, (*1875 †1967)
Major Ludwig Freiherr von Loenrod
Ewald Loeser, (*1888 †1970)
Ferdinand Freiherr von Lüninck, Oberpräsident von Westfalen
Wilhelm Graf zu Lynar, Landwirt
Hermann Maaß, führender Sozialdemokrat
Oberst Rudolf Graf von Marogna-Redwitz
Karl Marks, Kaufmann
Regierungsdirektor Michael Graf von Matuschka
Oberst Joachim Meichssner
Oberst Ritter Albrecht Mertz von Quirnheim, (*1905, †1944)
Oberstleutnant i.G. Karl Michel
Helmuth James Graf von Moltke, Rechtsanwalt
Prälat Dr. Otto Müller
Legationsrat a.G. Herbert Mumm von Schwarzenstein
Oberstleutnant Ernst Munziger
Arthur Nebe, Chef der Reichskriminalpolizei
Stadtbaurat Wilhelm zur Nieden
Major i.G. Ulrich von Oertzen
General Friedrich Olbricht, (*1880, †1944)
Generalmajor Hans Oster
Friedrich Justus Perels, Rechtsberater der Bekennenden Kirche
Staatssekretär a.D. Erwin Planck
Kurt Freiherr von Plettenberg
Dr. Johannes Popitz, preußischer Finanzminister
General Friedrich von Rabenau
Oberstleutnant i.G. Karl Ernst Rathgens
Professor Adolf Reichwein, führender Sozialdemokrat
Oberst Alexis Freiherr von Roenne
Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel (*1891 †1944)
Cuno Raabe, Jurist, (*1888, †1971)
Generalstabsrichter Karl Sack
Oberstleutnant i.G. Joachim Sadrozinski
Anton Saefkow, Maschinenbauer
Major Hans-Viktor Graf von Salviati
Professor Rüdiger Schleicher
Ernst Wilhelm Schneppenhorst, ehemaliger Gewerkschaftsführer
Friedrich Scholz-Babisch, Landwirt
Oberst Hermann Schöne
Oberstleutnant Werner Schrader
Regierungspräsident Fritz-Dietlof Graf von der Schulenberg
Botschafter Friedrich Werner Graf von der Schulenberg
Oberst i.G. Georg Schultze-Büttger
Ludwig Schwamb, führender Sozialdemokrat
Ulrich Wilhelm Graf von Schwerin von Schwanenfeld, Landwirt
Stadtbaurat Hans-Ludwig Sierks
Oberstleutnant i.G. Günter Smend
Franz Sperr, Gesandter
Oberst Wilhelm Staehle
Berthold Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, Jurist
Oberst i.G. Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, (*1907, †1944)
Oberst i.G. Hans-Joachim, Freiherr von Steinaecker
Helmut Generalmajor Stieff
Theodor Strünck, Versicherungsdirektor
General Karl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, (*1886, †1944)
Oberstleutnant Gustav Tellgmann
Elisabeth von Thadden, Internatsleiterin
Generalleutnant Fritz Thiele
Major Busso Thoma
General Carl Freiherr von Thüngen
Oberstleutnant Gerd von Tresckow
Generalmajor Henning von Tresckow, (*1901, †1944)
Legationsrat Adam von Trott zu Solz
Oberst a.D. Nikolaus Graf von Uexküll
Fritz Voigt, ehemaliger Polizeipräsident in Breslau
Oberstleutnant Hans-Alexander von Voss
Generalquartiermeister des Heeres Eduard Wagner
Oberst Siegfried Wagner
Kaplan Hermann Wehrle
Carl Wenzen-Teutschenthal, Landwirt
Joseph Wirmer, Rechtsanwalt
Oswald Wiersich, Gewerkschaftsführer
Generalfeldmarschall Erwin von Witzleben
Oberregierungsrat Peter Graf Yorck von Wartenburg
Staatssekretär Artur Zarden
General Gustav von Ziehlberg

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh yeah and does anyone know of any attempts on Stalins life.