How Rundstedt could've repulsed the Allied invasion in 44

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

I dont think the Luftwaffe would have based large numbers of aircraft in France/Holland/Belgium. That would present a nice juicy target for the allies. I could imagine the allied response would involve night fighters and bombers to harrass them, followed up by medium bombers to hole the fields in the morning, with heavy bombers next to craterize the airfield.

Just the numbers of fighters that the allies could deploy would mean the Luftwaffe would be on the defensive even before they would be at the forward airfields

agreed

Erich · 01-17-2006, 06:36 PM

~ I don't, simply the Allied forces did not have enough NF's at the elected time. Sure this is the reason to spread your forces out evenly and within the tree lines so they do not pose such an easy and quite visible target. But hey I am getting deeper into the what if.

~ As I said bring the Luftw nf force up closer to the coastal borders and the RAF would receive a nasty shock even before they would set over land. Amazing what can happen when a large force gets organized. The RAF knew about Unternehmen Gisela for well over a year and yet some 30 RAF heavies got popped on that March 45 date with the RAF heavies heading home, having no clue what was going to befall them. They were so casual and as standard practice left lights on inplace on the wayward trip leading the German nf's right to the A/F's. Again had the Fernenachtjagd been able to keep up the pace the night air war would have chnged dramaticly

syscom3 · 01-17-2006, 07:02 PM

Erich, could the Luftwaffe been strong enough in April 1944 to begin a sustained bombing offensive against the allied assembly points and depots? If they did, wouldnt that leave Germany wide open for the growing hordes of B17's, B24's and P51's?

Erich · 01-17-2006, 07:20 PM

~ not necessarily. the bomber Geschwaders were not supported by Göring after the invasion of the Soviet Union and his faith in them failed so they were left to their own initiatives. It didn't help to have the ugly moustached one press him on this matter. It was always was attack, attack, attack and with what... ?

~ if the Fernenachtjagd missions had been stepped up instead of just using one meagre NJG2 Geschwader in 1941 you would not have seen B-17's B-24's or probably even a mulititude of RAF Lancs and Hali's fly over the Reich. this was how important the the German Night intruder program could have been. As I said several times the Luftw. knew of every RAF airfield on the UK and they were prepared to take it to them until the short turd of an Austrian called the whole thing off. In my personal opinion this is what caused the dramatic turn around in the air war for both night and day. To make it plain and simple historians have overlooked this all important factoid .............

~ E

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

~ not necessarily. the bomber Geschwaders were not supported by Göring after the invasion of the Soviet Union and his faith in them failed so they were left to their own initiatives. It didn't help to have the ugly moustached one press him on this matter. It was always was attack, attack, attack and with what... ?

~ if the Fernenachtjagd missions had been stepped up instead of just using one meagre NJG2 Geschwader in 1941 you would not have seen B-17's B-24's or probably even a mulititude of RAF Lancs and Hali's fly over the Reich. this was how important the the German Night intruder program could have been. As I said several times the Luftw. knew of every RAF airfield on the UK and they were prepared to take it to them until the short turd of an Austrian called the whole thing off. In my personal opinion this is what caused the dramatic turn around in the air war for both night and day. To make it plain and simple historians have overlooked this all important factoid .............

~ E

Intertesting, I have also read how RAF bombers and night fighters became very careless and they left on landing lights, flying lights etc and German NF shot them down right over their own airfield. Just far to few to make any difference.

Erich · 01-18-2006, 12:24 AM

I guess my repetitive statements are probably precluding the original title of the thread.

Had the Ferne ~ Nachtjagd been in ever greater numbers and meaning up to Geschwader strength and more than just 1-2 units but fielded as many Geschwaders as made by day, this Intruder force alone could have changed the air war before the US could of sent their very first B-17's over in late 1942. the fields would have been under the watchful eyes continually, the RAF would never know if it was safe to come out for a bombing of the Reich or taxiing at night or training at night, etc............since the attackers were always present. the threat was there and the idea had worked but stupid minds get in the way of greatness many times, and in this case the nf's were pulled off duty and sent to Afrika

syscom3 · 01-18-2006, 01:05 AM

Erich, so what happens when the RAF sends their night intruders and fighters to do the same thing to the Luftwaffe?

I dont think the night fighters and night bombers would have much impact on the 8th and 9th AF's. All they (AAF) would do is dig reventments and disperse the aircraft to a higher degree than they did.

Erich · 01-18-2006, 09:29 AM

I still do not think you chaps are taking into consideration what I am trying to state. If the German intruder program would of stepped up to the plate and continued the harrassment full swing the US bomber program never would of happened and the RAF night program would of been further delayed, RAF intruders and nfs would not have gotten off the ground as the Luftw wouild of pulverized anything on the ground - a/c, any euipment, buildings of any sort.

it all would of ceased to exist. My reasoning as you can see is well beofre the reality of Normandie

Hunter368 · 01-18-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

I still do not think you chaps are taking into consideration what I am trying to state. If the German intruder program would of stepped up to the plate and continued the harrassment full swing the US bomber program never would of happened and the RAF night program would of been further delayed, RAF intruders and nfs would not have gotten off the ground as the Luftw wouild of pulverized anything on the ground - a/c, any euipment, buildings of any sort.

it all would of ceased to exist. My reasoning as you can see is well beofre the reality of Normandie

Like you admited before what you talk about is a BIG if but ok. I would say if they did that the Allies would of done exactly the same thing. They could of and would of put up alot of nf of their own. Both over their own bases, UK and over German airbases. They would of also inmproved the ackack and radar and spotlights. I still am not convinced it would of changed much. It just would changed how it happened alittle but the outcome would not of changed I think.

evangilder · 01-18-2006, 09:37 AM

The US did not have any dedicated night fighters until the P-61 came out. They could have fitted other fighters for it, I suppose, but the Luftwaffe could have made a heck of a dent in the 8th AF if they had started the NF and night strike missions early on.

Hunter368 · 01-18-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangilder

The US did not have any dedicated night fighters until the P-61 came out. They could have fitted other fighters for it, I suppose, but the Luftwaffe could have made a heck of a dent in the 8th AF if they had started the NF and night strike missions early on.

True like I said it would of altered the course alittle but USA ingenuity and massive production power would of fixed that fast. USA just didn't see a great need for a nf at that time, why should they have right? They were operating during the day not night. If German would of started using nf more and more over UK hitting the 8th you think they would of taken that laying down, lol no way. We would of seen the P-61 faster and seen planes that they had already there fitted to become nf to fill the gap. USA ingenuity at work, never say never. We would of seen planes fitted into nf role that we never saw for real. To think that German could of adapted and changed the way they fought the war and then to say that the allies would or could of not also is mmmmmm lets just say does not make sense. As the allies proved many times they had better supply, better industry, and many more pilots. German would of started losing pilots over UK which would of made their other problems happen even faster. Don't forget Germany had to already had to start training bomber pilots to become fighter pilots to fill their gaps in trained pilots for home defence, this would of made it happen even faster. While i like Eric idea in theory, it would of changed things alittle yes, but not stopped the course of the war over all.

evangilder · 01-18-2006, 10:04 AM

If you look at the historical perspective, the early 8th AF was struggling. Without fighter escorts, they were taking pretty heavy losses. If the Germans had aggressively attacked the early 8th AF, it could have caused a major strategy shift. The operrational losses alone almost caused the 8th to stop operations altogether. If they had been aggressively attacked at the same time, that might have been enough to change the whole air war in Europe.

Again, it's kind of moot as it did not happen, but I believe that had the Luftwaffe had a better commander than fatso, they could have been used more effectively.

Erich · 01-18-2006, 10:31 AM

As Eric said Fatty was the prime directive, what he said ruled. You cannot have an 8th or 9th AF flying over the contintient to pop Germany if you do not have a functional base to work from. this IS EXACTLY my point with the German intruders. Germany was the first to put these in effect. had they come to full fruition the night and even the day air war would of changed. How ? no one knows. It is one of the aspects of the air war that there is so little written about.

getting back to the Normandie invasion and that what if, sure we clearly again see the overwhelmingness of the US air armada but had in 1941 things changed with my feelings on night intruders, then what..... ? ok lets not go there as it has been hashed

Hunter368 · 01-18-2006, 11:06 AM

Erich · 01-18-2006, 11:23 AM

Intruders over Britain by Simon Parry. Not an easy book to find.

probably the only real book in print covering the ver early war exploits of the German nf intruders and the problems the RAF had with them.........a scarey proposition it was for anything in the future.

I had the pleasure of interviewing by letter one NJG 2 member Herbert Thomas who as the result of a severe wounding and crashing of the Ju 88C he was in kept him out of the rest of the war. His feelings were just as I stated, If the continuation had been complete by all the existing NJG's then the course of the air would have changed .............