How Rundstedt could've repulsed the Allied invasion in 44

Soren · 01-17-2006, 06:59 AM

Thsi is a very interesting read, and I recommend reading it all through very carefully, enjoy: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/rundstedt/index.html

Gnomey · 01-17-2006, 07:24 AM

Interesting article Soren, enjoyed reading that and I agree with some of the points that Von Rundstedt makes.

syscom3 · 01-17-2006, 11:45 AM

Yes, that was an inetresting read. Although I do disagree with him on how effective the Luftwaffe "could" have been..."If I had been able to move the troops, then my air force would also have been in a position to attack hostile ships." .......

He himself admits the Luftwaffe was outnumbered 10-1.

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Yes, that was an inetresting read. Although I do disagree with him on how effective the Luftwaffe "could" have been..."If I had been able to move the troops, then my air force would also have been in a position to attack hostile ships." .......

He himself admits the Luftwaffe was outnumbered 10-1.

I 100% agree, Luftwaffe would not been able to do much vs USA and UK air forces. Germans would of been slauthered. UK and USA could put more fighters over the battle field than German had total on the western front including home land defence. At that point German could not even try and control the air that close to UK where all the Allied planes could reach them. German bombers would of been torn to pieces and I mean small small pieces,

Soren · 01-17-2006, 01:00 PM

You miss the point, he wasn't trying to gain air-superiority, he wanted to repulse the land-based Allied invasion force. And had he been permitted to move his forces when he wanted to, he could've abruptly halted the Allied invasion of Normandy.

By moving his forces closer to the beaches, he would make life abit harder for the Allied fighters/bombers as-well, harassing them by placing Flak installations and having groups of LW fighters fly high and ready at specific places, thereby relieving the emplacements at the beach.

And to the comment that the LW would've been slaughtered by the allied airforce, highly unlikely, but casualties would've been high on both sides.

However even if Hitler would've allowed Rundstedt to move his forces when he wanted to, it is still unclear whether that could've been enough to actually repulse the allied invasion. One thing is for sure though, the initial invasion would've been a much nastier affair for the Allies.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-17-2006, 01:22 PM

I agree with your there Soren on the Luftwaffe. I dont know if they could have done eneogh, but the Luftwaffe pilots were very skilled and the aircraft were equal to the allied aircraft they could have done some damage to the allied airforces.

I too dont know if what Rundstedt wanted there would have been eneogh though to stop the invasion, but I do think the story would have been a bit different.

Erich · 01-17-2006, 02:11 PM

you guys forget one major point concerning Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and crews.

The NACHTJAGD could of easily been prepared enough to strike with bomblets as they did during the March 45 raid "Unternehmen Gisela"

the Ju 88G-1's and Me 410 A'swere available to make the long trip as US and RAF airfields were known at length. Ammo and fuels were not scarce, and it would of created huge havoc, but the nachtjagd was not called up preferring to use the nigh time defence only to combat RAF heavies over the Reich. Fenenachtjagd had been thrown out after 1941 by the morn der Führer and the ultimate "Fat Man" .

had it done so the RAF home nf defence would of been so strung out it could not have defended it's homeland justifibly.

German day time jabos and twin engines were not then needed to take the war back to England.

Remember Bodenplatte from another thread, a conceivable idea much earlier but transgressed to late in the war to not add up to anything except self destruction of the attacking force(s)

syscom3 · 01-17-2006, 03:14 PM

He could have bottled up the invasion into a smaller beachhead for a bit, but eventually, the naval gunfire support and allied bombers would have pushed him out far enough for the allies to have a contiginous beachhead.

The Luftwaffe attacking the ships would have mixed results. They could sink a few ships but the attrition on them would be severe. The allies would have massed naval AA gun fire and an aerial armada of fighters to fend off the bombers.

Just the shear size of the invasion meant the Germans would have to sink hundreds of ships just to have an impact.

Erich · 01-17-2006, 03:20 PM

the armada would not have been the armada had the Luftwaffe and Rundestedt plus "Fatty" woken up several days before hand. of course this is all a huge what if but yes it would of been ultimately destructive for the Allies had an "official" night bombing campaign been put into effect striking Enmglish ports. As I said the Luftwaffe knew where the fields and ports all were but yet because of faulty leadership in the higher eschelons their hands were tied.

forget day time resistance as the Lufw. day defences were in process of moving deeper into the Reich, as it was shown on the first day 6-6-44 with few sorties flown and only the enxt days were the generation of JG a/c up in force and decimated

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

He could have bottled up the invasion into a smaller beachhead for a bit, but eventually, the naval gunfire support and allied bombers would have pushed him out far enough for the allies to have a contiginous beachhead.

The Luftwaffe attacking the ships would have mixed results. They could sink a few ships but the attrition on them would be severe. The allies would have massed naval AA gun fire and an aerial armada of fighters to fend off the bombers.

Just the shear size of the invasion meant the Germans would have to sink hundreds of ships just to have an impact.

100% agree with you there. Could the ground forces been better handled by Germany .... yes for sure. Could their LW been better handled... yes for sure. Would allies suffered higher causalities for sure. Would it have stopped the invasion, no. Not to mention keep in mind that the Germans would not have been able to throw their whole army in France at the beach front b/c they needed a reserve to make sure this was not a feint only. So they could of better rolled out their army yes but they could not of responsibly thrown everything they had at them just in case it was just a feint attack and then their flank would of been open. But their army was mislead for sure. But still if you look at the LW in France at the time compared to the allied air force it does not compare in numbers. Yes German pilots were still good quality in France but they were out numbered hugely. Plus if they (fighters) were given the task of protecting ground attack craft (at low level) and escorting their lightly armed bombers (high level) they would of been very stung out and overly tasked and heavy out numbered. Look at LW in BoB the fighters could not protect their bombers good enough then, their fighters would of been even worse odds to face in this battle. They would of been highly out numbered and they would not of been able to use their hit and run tactics that they used so successfully in 41-42 b/c they needed to defend their bombers. Had they hit and run their they would of done some damage (which the allies could of easly replaced) and then their bombers would of been left hanging out there all on their own and the rest of the allied planes would of torn them to pieces. The LW would of suffered horriable attrition losses that they could not replace (ie see Battle of Germany). But like Adler pointed out I think Allies would of suffered higher losts yes but it would not of stopped them.

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

the armada would not have been the armada had the Luftwaffe and Rundestedt plus "Fatty" woken up several days before hand. of course this is all a huge what if but yes it would of been ultimately destructive for the Allies had an "official" night bombing campaign been put into effect striking Enmglish ports. As I said the Luftwaffe knew where the fields and ports all were but yet because of faulty leadership in the higher eschelons their hands were tied.

forget day time resistance as the Lufw. day defences were in process of moving deeper into the Reich, as it was shown on the first day 6-6-44 with few sorties flown and only the enxt days were the generation of JG a/c up in force and decimated

Eric at this time did Germany have the resources available to them (in the west) in the German bomber forces to attack Uk ports? Plus depending of UK ports (I am not sure) could the allies have not just moved the attack force to ports farther north or west in Uk out of range. Then when Germans moved their bombers closer, they attack their airfields. Plus were most ground attack and bombers that they had far in the east where they were desperately needed ?

Erich · 01-17-2006, 03:55 PM

the Luftwaffe night force though fewer than in the day time defence could have dealt some massive blows at the time had they been given fore-notice, something we will never know as a huge what if. Again fuel was there, ammo was there, plenty of crews. bomber formations would of moved to the northern shores of Holland and France to strike out. Co-operation well could of happened between night attacking forces.

As you mentioned which is overall very important, it would not have stopped dthe Allied juggernaut just delayed it. It was evident that the Allies had to play their hand sometime and that sometime was soon in the summer of 44.

♫

Hunter368 · 01-17-2006, 04:01 PM

Yup even with 100% hind sight I don't think Germany could of stopped the Allies. It would of been like trying the bail the sinking Titanic with a table spoon.

You might of been able to do it alittle better than they did but nothing would of stopped the on stopable juggernaut aka the Allies.

Erich · 01-17-2006, 04:21 PM

slight OT but had the Luftwaffe had the quickness to get into action we may have seen V-1 and V-2's aimed in closeness to Allied ports of calling.

then what would of happened... ? Although Peenumünde was obliterated in August of 43, sub factories were not and still dealing with rocket parts for manufacture

syscom3 · 01-17-2006, 04:32 PM

I dont think the Luftwaffe would have based large numbers of aircraft in France/Holland/Belgium. That would present a nice juicy target for the allies. I could imagine the allied response would involve night fighters and bombers to harrass them, followed up by medium bombers to hole the fields in the morning, with heavy bombers next to craterize the airfield.

Just the numbers of fighters that the allies could deploy would mean the Luftwaffe would be on the defensive even before they would be at the forward airfields