Imperial War Museum, London

[Readie]

I took my 14 year old lad to the IWM to see the BoB Spitfire and WW1 & WW2 exhibits last week. We happened upon the Holocaust exhibition, blimey that was an experience... I had little idea of the scale, depth and breath of the German desire to 'cleanse' Europe and that included German disabled & mentally ill adults and children.
To be honest I viewed the rest of the exhibits differently afterwards and wondered how the German nation can hold its head up after such an appalling catalogue of crimes against humanity.
I'm just expressing how the Holocaust exhibition made my feel, I would recommend a visit to anyone who has lost sight of the value of VE day and the peace Europe has enjoyed since.
Cheers
John

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Great museum, would love to go back to it any day.

To be honest I viewed the rest of the exhibits differently afterwards and wondered how the German nation can hold its head up after such an appalling catalogue of crimes against humanity.

The German nation today (nor the modern German people) are to blame for this, nor should a German who was not even alive during that time be made accountable for it. My wife is a German and she is proud of it, there is no reason for her not be. She was born more than 30 years after these terrible things happened. She is a member of a modern and peaceful nation.

Not saying it should be forgotten or those who participated in the past should be forgiven, but the German nation today can hold its head up as high as anyone else. The majority of the world's nations have had their dark period (that includes Germany, England, France, Russia, Japan, Italy, USA, etc...), some are worse than others, that is true, but a nation today (as in those that came after it) can not be judged for what their forefathers have done. They should be judged in how they learn from it and prevent it from happening again.

May such terrible acts never happen again...

[Njaco]

Since humans first rose from the mud, EVERY society, at some point in history, has committed such terrible acts. Its the human conition. The Holocaust is just recent memory.

If you get time you have to check out the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.......sobering to say the least.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If you get time you have to check out the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.......sobering to say the least.

Try visiting some of the concentration camps here. Very sobering and somber. I have been to a few now.

[evangilder]

The Weisenthal Center here in LA is quite sobering as well. People often forget that it wasn't just the Jews that Hitler targeted. Anyone considered undesirable or "sub-human" were targets for elimination. Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the infirm, Slavs and a host of others. I do agree with Adler though. One cannot hold the descendants accountable for what happened in the past. It is shameful what has happened, and it should not be forgotten. But holding people that were not even alive at the time is equally bad.

[Readie]

Great museum, would love to go back to it any day.



The German nation today (nor the modern German people) are to blame for this, nor should a German who was not even alive during that time be made accountable for it. My wife is a German and she is proud of it, there is no reason for her not be. She was born more than 30 years after these terrible things happened. She is a member of a modern and peaceful nation.

Not saying it should be forgotten or those who participated in the past should be forgiven, but the German nation today can hold its head up as high as anyone else. The majority of the world's nations have had their dark period (that includes Germany, England, France, Russia, Japan, Italy, USA, etc...), some are worse than others, that is true, but a nation today (as in those that came after it) can not be judged for what their forefathers have done. They should be judged in how they learn from it and prevent it from happening again.

May such terrible acts never happen again...

The German nation has to bear responsibility for their past Chris, just as the British have too.
The thing I took away from the Holocaust exhibition was that the Germans are not naturally predisposed to genocide, nor are the Cambodians, Africans and any other lunatic country you care to mention. What frightens me is that we are all capable of it...
John

[Mustang nut]

Readie I really do think you should visit Germany.

you will find an advanced country fully aware of its past. you can visit for example Bergen Belsen and see that it is maintained and respected with the specific intention that this should not happen again. In the present crisis on financial markets you can see the German point of view. Hitler came to power when Germany lost control of its currency, the depression and rampant inflation gave the environment to allow Adolf to sieze power. The one thing that scares Germans today is loss off control of its money, that is a lesson of history.

Adolf was not a German and he wasn't elected, germany was a comparatively new country, it didn't have the system to prevent a despot taking over. Its constitution today is one of the most liberal and truely democratic in europe if not the world.

Democracy is a Germanic tradition the last Saxon king of England Harald was elected by a Wittan.

I also suggest you visit Cliffords tower in York where you will find a small (very small) plaque put up a few years ago in memory of the day ALL the Jews in York were massacred on the order of king Edward. We all have a cross to bear, I have never met a German who denied the holocaust (it is illegal to do so) but have met people from other countries including the UK who were profoundly anti semitic.

[Readie]

Readie I really do think you should visit Germany.

you will find an advanced country fully aware of its past. you can visit for example Bergen Belsen and see that it is maintained and respected with the specific intention that this should not happen again. In the present crisis on financial markets you can see the German point of view. Hitler came to power when Germany lost control of its currency, the depression and rampant inflation gave the environment to allow Adolf to sieze power. The one thing that scares Germans today is loss off control of its money, that is a lesson of history.

Adolf was not a German and he wasn't elected, germany was a comparatively new country, it didn't have the system to prevent a despot taking over. Its constitution today is one of the most liberal and truely democratic in europe if not the world.

Democracy is a Germanic tradition the last Saxon king of England Harald was elected by a Wittan.

I also suggest you visit Cliffords tower in York where you will find a small (very small) plaque put up a few years ago in memory of the day ALL the Jews in York were massacred on the order of king Edward. We all have a cross to bear, I have never met a German who denied the holocaust (it is illegal to do so) but have met people from other countries including the UK who were profoundly anti semitic.

Not to mention the support the Nazi's had from our own esteemed upper class and some members of the Royal family as well.
In a way the Treaty of Versailles paved the road for Hitler and the ghastly mess that followed.
I have visited Germany several times, I have yet to go to Berlin. I'm not sure I want to visit Belsen to be honest.
I found the Holocaust Exhibition unsettling enough.
The German's I met in Western Germany and travelling to the UK where from all backgrounds and ages. Perfectly polite people and I have no quarrel with them.
If the German's are truly afraid of losing control then why did they join the Euro Zone? The whole EZ is a disaster waiting to happen.
I am most comfortable in France, I have an admiration for the French and find them pro British as long as you make the effort with their language.
Having said all that, I venture to Newcastle and you can cut the air with hostility...and this is my own country !!
I am a great believer in history warts and all and more to the point learning from past mistakes.
I believe that Europe has finally done that.
Cheers
John

[Mustang nut]

.
If the German's are truly afraid of losing control then why did they join the Euro Zone? The whole EZ is a disaster waiting to happen.

Germany is in a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation. With the Euro they had to go along to prove they were "good europeans" even now Germany s history is used to insist they bail out greece etc. Germans didnt want to lose the DM but they didnt want to be seen as bad europeans either.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The German nation has to bear responsibility for their past Chris

And you hold Germans that were not even alive accountable for what happened then? Or anyone from any nation for their past?

If so, that is pretty sad and I am sorry for you...

I will leave it at that and speak no more to you or on this topic.

[Readie]

And you hold Germans that were not even alive accountable for what happened then? Or anyone from any nation for their past?

If so, that is pretty sad and I am sorry for you...

I will leave it at that and speak no more to you or on this topic.

We inherit our history good and bad Chris. The English have more to answer for than a lot of nations. Ask the Irish.

I'm sorry that you feel that you are unable to speak to me again.
Being half Jewish may cloud my objectivity and if I have offended you then I apologise, I am just being honest with the way one exhibition made me feel.

history is just that...history, but to fall out over it...that is sad.

John

[Readie]

Germany is in a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation. With the Euro they had to go along to prove they were "good europeans" even now Germany s history is used to insist they bail out greece etc. Germans didnt want to lose the DM but they didnt want to be seen as bad europeans either.

The EuroZone has gone horribly wrong and I am so glad that we kept out of it. I understand your point about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We inherit our history good and bad Chris. The English have more to answer for than a lot of nations. Ask the Irish.

I'm sorry that you feel that you are unable to speak to me again.
Being half Jewish may cloud my objectivity and if I have offended you then I apologise, I am just being honest with the way one exhibition made me feel.

history is just that...history, but to fall out over it...that is sad.

I sent you a PM.

I am not going to stop speaking to you, I will just not speak to you on this topic any more. Sorry if I did not make this clear. I have said my piece and as a "half German/American" I will hold my head up high. I have no reason not to. My wife, my family and hers will hold hers up as well. She has no reason not to either. Anyone who tells me or them otherwise can go and screw themselves. Yes I feel strongly about this.