Infantry VS Armor

[Soren]

This is for all to watch, its an excellent documentary with many Tiger veterans and aces interviewed, amongst them Otto Carius, one the greatest.

YouTube - Tiger Attack 3 of 5

Note that Otto Carious says he always kept his head outside of the turret, this was favored by most tank commanders to gain better vision.

Also amazing is his near death experience while in a trench assaulted by the Soviets, note how many times he was shot.

The rest of the series in proper order:

YouTube - Tiger Attack 1 of 5
YouTube - Tiger Attack 2 of 5
YouTube - Tiger Attack 3 of 5
YouTube - Tiger Attack 4 of 5
YouTube - Tiger Attack 5 of 5

[freebird]

Originally Posted by MacArther

I'm looking for notable actions where infantry (from any side) were able to combat enemy armor enough to force a withdrawal, or reassessment of the situation. If possible, the actions without AT guns (i.e. 57mm M1, and other towed things) would be very interesting. I've found very few documentations of infantry against tanks at all, so it would be interesting to see how well some infantry did.

The US Abrams tank is so heavily armoured that it was very tough for the Iraqi's to destroy one.

One notable action was supposedly on Mar 27 {2003 presumably} when an Iraqi sniper shot the driver of the tank, which then drove off the bridge into a river, killing 3 other crew.


Abrams heavy tank proves its mettle in Iraq campaign

[Juha]

Heck
too many messages to read through, must get to work soon.
Soren
You give me 2 Shermans, and I took one Sherman Mk V (because good HE round)and one Sherman Mk VC for good A/T capability), so its you problem if it is diifficult to understand that in the combat unexpected might happened.
Fireflys: IIRC in June Allied troops under 21st AG had 316 Sherman Mk VCs and 2 Sherman Mk ICs, not so uncommon, Dear Soren.
And sorry for you #crack" W-SS crew, lesson 2, overconfidence is a great killer in wartime.

Juha

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

Six Tigers for thirty British tanks and an equal number of halftrack, trucks etc etc is a pretty staggering feat, and this was done in Villers Bocage which mind you means very close range engagements and then proceeded into a town which is anything but tank country.

14 tanks were destroyed by the solo attack which was by any measure an exceptional feat, for the loss of one Tiger.
When I say business as usual once surprise had been lost the facts are as follows.

Total losses were 6 Tigers and 5 other German Tanks (why do you always forget those?) and 30 British Tanks.
Which means that when surpise was lost in the rest of the fighting, 16 Britsh Tanks were lost for 5 Tigers and 5 other German tanks. As a loss ratio for France this was pretty good for the allies.

However we digress, the point was that he knew what he was getting into and didn't charge out blind into the attack.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by freebird

The US Abrams tank is so heavily armoured that it was very tough for the Iraqi's to destroy one.

One notable action was supposedly on Mar 27 {2003 presumably} when an Iraqi sniper shot the driver of the tank, which then drove off the bridge into a river, killing 3 other crew.


Abrams heavy tank proves its mettle in Iraq campaign

Other Articles
Abrams tank showed 'vulnerability' in Iraq - Jane's Land Forces News

This relates to the first Gulf War
During the Gulf War only 18 Abrams tanks were taken out of service due to battle damage: nine were permanent losses, and another nine suffered repairable damage, mostly from mines. Not a single Abrams crewman was lost in the conflict. There were few reports of mechanical failure. US armor commanders maintained an unprecedented 90% operational readiness for their Abrams Main Battle Tanks
M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

What I find interesting is that I understand that only now are these tanks being equipped with a telephone that will enable infantry to talk directly to the crew. This I think has been standard in the UK since the Churchill.

[parsifal]

well I produced a map based on the phot provided by Soren, and then fed in various force structures to try and test this theory. I was using a simulation called "west front" by Talonsoft, which allows editable scenarios to be fed into the computer.

I started with the single tank versus the 100 men scenario that we have been talking about, and it was a whitewash for the allies. I tried all manner of permutations. I gave the germans unlimited morale, and then ace shots, and then unlimted ammo. I tried German AI, I tried Allied AI, I even tried both AI. The result each time was that the tiger was destroyed.

So then I decided to modify the scenario a little to see at what point the scenario would reach a point of balance. If I reduce the amount of allied Infantry to 80 men, reduce the numbers of tanks on the allied side to just two, and increase the Germans to three Tigers, with ace crews and an armoured car (to act as an observer, plus I give them a high rating leader), I can, as a german commander and sometimes as the AI German manage to hold the town, but allied losses never exceed 15 Infantrymen. Both Allied tanks get brewed however.

Even when i set the AI to its dumbest level, the german tanks dont leave the cover of the village. However, whilst as a human player i can get into the village, and get into the buildings, I just cannot move the tanks out of the village. The Tigers just sit there taking potshots at the buildings. Generally, once i enter the structures, I suffer only single digit casualties for the remainder of the day


If my simulation is anywhere near accurate (and generally it is) I can draw a couple of conclusions. Firstly, the tanks most certainly do not cause heavy losses to the Infantry. Max losses, as i said, were 15 Infantrymen, and two tanks. With the three tank Tiger model the most losses I could inflict on the germans was one tank.

However, and conversely, the infantry have a great deal of trouble dislodging the tanks from their position. The tanks are very effective at pinning the Infantry down, and the Infantry has a great deal of trouble in closing with the tanks. Even when they do, they still have difficulty in doing anything to the tanks that cause them to move out of the village.

As expected, the smoke from the two batteries of 25 pdrs that i allocated to the allies were very effective at providing smoke cover for the Infantry.

I dont know if this test helps at all, but it is the nearest thing I could think of to actually t4esting the theories that we have been discussing. My conclusion is that the tanks are much more effective at delay than I had thought, but in no way were they able to inflict serious losses on the attacking infantry.

[Juha]

Hello
even if IMHO blind charge through smokescreen of unknown depth is mistake IMHO Soren’s decision to move out of village was right. IMHO worst scenario to the crew of the Tiger is sitting in cover and suddenly find out that that there is enemy infantry swarming around their hiding place.
But I agree with Parsifal, that for a tank it’s better to keep distance of at least 150m to nearest infantryman in open, especially in flanks and rear, at least unrtil the crew has figured out possible PIATs or Bazookas. IIRC both had max effective range against tanks appr. 100m but were not effective against frontal armour of Tiger. IIRC shell of PIAT penetrated appr 100m steel in tests but on battlefield it’s ability to piece Tigers 82mm side and rear armour was unpredictable. So infantry couldn’t be sure that they got an effective penetration with a single hit and crew of Tiger couldn’t count on that their armour would held the blast.
IMHO even two PzIVs would have been better option than one Tiger because IMHO two tanks are at least trice as dangerous enemy than lonely tank, especially for infantry. Also PzIV with schürzen would look like Tiger, so have same moral effect and I guess would have better protected sides than Tiger against HEAT shells. I mean that I guess that the schürzen would effective protect the original armour against first generation HEAT shells and only holed if hit not blown away. Have anyone info on what effects PIAT or Bazooka shell had on German schürzen, would the schürzen stay in its place? Of course PzIV’s turret front and driver’s plate would be vulnerable to PIAT/Bazooka hits but if the infantry in the heat of battle thought that they were facing Tiger IMHO they would be inclined not to try head on shots.
Have anyone info on British A/T mines, were they powerful enough to break the track of a Tiger with some certainty?

Juha

[parsifal]

Soren, this is the map that I have redesigned, following yoou message to me, and a detailed look at the photo. I have removed the vegetation in front of the village, to give the Tigers a clearer view of the field.

If the field is 1000 metres across, then the village is about 6-800 metres, wide as well, and about 400 metres deep. These are estimates only but are the best I could do with the information yoou provided. Its not quite the same parameters as the diagram that yoou sent me, but photo analysis i did at work showed that youor estimate of distance on the photo was not correct either.

I have not worried about putting in special terrain beyond the 1250 metre mark from the village, because it is not all that relevant. The terrain that approaches the village is completely open, but it does have some low hills and trees on top of them (in places) on top of those low hills

Anyway, let me know if you are happy with the result, and I will sart the testing of this map as well.

[Soren]

Ok now I know what this game is (West front & East front), it's like some sort of chess game, however it isn't realistic enough for this scenario Parsifal as it doesn't take into account many very important factors.

I tried the scenario in Combat Mission 3, the map being almost identical to the one I sent you, here are the details (Pictures are soon to follow)

Allied force:
British rifle company comprising of 4 x PIAT's teams, 2 x Mortars and ca. 120 men with various smallarms, plus I added 2 x US M4A3 Shermans and 2 x 25 pdr Howitzers as support.

German Force:
1 x Tiger Ausf.E with Elite crew and 50% fanatacism (Waffen SS afterall).

End result:

After about 15min of fighting in which both Shermans and both 25 pdr guns were destroyed, (despite smoke being used) the Allies starting routing. The Tiger was the whole time gradually moving forwards engaging both the infantry & support. In the end the Tiger ran out of HE shells and only had very little ammunition for its MG's left, but at that point the allies were already routing.

Allied losses:
98 Casualties
2 x M4A3 Shermans destroyed
2 x Motars destroyed
2 x 25 pdr Howitzers destroyed

German losses:
None.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Juha

Heck
too many messages to read through, must get to work soon.
Soren
You give me 2 Shermans, and I took one Sherman Mk V (because good HE round)and one Sherman Mk VC for good A/T capability), so its you problem if it is diifficult to understand that in the combat unexpected might happened.
Fireflys: IIRC in June Allied troops under 21st AG had 316 Sherman Mk VCs and 2 Sherman Mk ICs, not so uncommon, Dear Soren.
And sorry for you #crack" W-SS crew, lesson 2, overconfidence is a great killer in wartime.

Juha

Poor Juha, if we were to follow the rules here you'd have NO AT or Artillery support what'so'ever! So I consider myself generous to let you have two Shermans and light artillery support as this wasn't part of what we were discussing in the first place! So now ofcourse you'd like to have a Firefly all of a sudden, clearly realizing your infantry will be cut to pieces without one, well sorry but you don't have one, so what do you do ??

As I said from the beginning the Allies were absolutely dependant on AT or artillery support when faced with German armour, otherwise it was a very onesided affair!

Now quit the patronising tone and stick to the original debate!

And about the availability of Firefly's in Normandy well according to my sources there were a mere 200 present.

[parsifal]

well, we have two different game systems, and two different results. I just cannot see how a single tank can cover such a long frontage, cant even see even a third of the forces ranged against it, and yet can still kill nearly all of them. Does not sound particualry realistic to me. As I said, reagarding WFII, it has won multiple awards, including realism awards, and to the extent that it is turn based, is vaguely like chess. however, there are abilities that allow an opponent to "save" Action Points" (APs), that enable them to react to moves made when they are not the phasing player. This is far more realistic than a real time game, where the ability to react immediately to a developing situation would be quite unrealistic.

How, all of a sudden, are you now familiar with WF, when just the other day you had never heard of it.

Just to give some idea of the detail contained in WF, the basic rules section for the game is 237 pages long. The scenario editor alone occupies over 80 pages. Trust me, its detailed, and its accurate

[Soren]

Parsifal,

Combat Mission 3 is turn based as-well, it isn't a real time strategy game.

Furthermore the game features moral, climate, fanatacism, wind, blast effects, advanced penetration calculator etc etc etc... And like West & East front it has won multiple awards as-well:

"Turn-based Strategy Game of the Year (2002). Awesomely realistic graphics, sound and detail; a feeling of real command… feels like war - sometimes almost frighteningly so… a personal war movie with scenarios that draw you right into battle... 90%"
- PC Gamer

"Whether it's the tide-turning ambush, the seemingly invulnerable lone tank, or the Sqaud That Wouldn't Quit, CMBB makes the game come alive in a way possible only on the computer. That's quite an achievement, and well worth the award of Wargame of the Year."
- Computer Gaming World

"Barbarossa to Berlin raises the wargaming bar even higher with its pitch-perfect, ultra-polished improvements to an already great game... Now that World War II is such a popular setting in first-person shooters, Combat Mission is a perfect venue for action-oriented gamers to have a more in-depth but no less exciting look at the subject matter.... 9.1 out of 10."
- Gamespot

"Great graphics; easy and exciting enough to appeal to average gamers, but enough fidelity and complexity to please the most hardcore wargamers... It's truly great stuff, whether you're a hardcore grognard or simply a gamer looking for excitement that doesn't involve orcs or elves or zombies... Don't let the fact that this is a wargame fool you, this is one of the best games available on a PC (or Mac).... 94%"
- Gamespy

"Not only is it one of the greatest wargames we've ever played, it also takes everything that normally makes wargames so inaccessible and throws it right out the window. A slick interface keeps you focused on tactics while the level of detail and modeling forces you to adopt realistic strategies. Add to that the comprehensive range of units and scenarios and you have a game that you won't put down for years to come. 9.0 out of 10."
- IGN

"Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin is easy to play, has attractive 3D graphics, the underlying calculations are immensely intricate, the AI is competent, and the parameters are highly adjustable. It is very nice that the program exhibits stability and runs acceptably on less than the most powerful computers. "

- The Wargamer

Awards

Best Turn-Based Strategy Game, 2002, PC Gamer
Wargame of the Year, Computer Gaming World
Editor's Choice Award, Gamespot
Editor's Choice Award, IGN
Best Game of the Year and Reader's Choice Award, The Wargamer

[Soren]

Parsifal,

The real killer for the infantry is the Tiger's hull mounted MG-34, this is prefectly stabilized, equipped with a 1.5x wide view scope and fires at 900 rpm, it just cuts any infantry down. The 88mm gun is ofcourse also highly effective vs infantry but in this scenario the infantry quickly scatters minimizing the lethal effect of a HE shell.

[parsifal]

What I will do is to contact the tactical specialists in the design group and get them to playtest this scenario out using other systems, to see what the most likley results are from a range of game titles. Because it involves a number of individuals from accross the country, it may take a few days to complete. However, i am sure we can get a reasonable consesnsus from people more qualified than either of us, as to what might reasonably be expected in this sort of scenario.

[parsifal]

I have just sent the following request to the more tactically minded members of our group

"I was wondering if you could do me a favour and test out a hypothetical scenario that has become the subject of a hot debate on an internet forum I am involved with. The forum is called "WWII Warbirds", and the thread is "Infantry vs armour in WWII"


The debate has devolved to whether Infantry that does not have dedicated AT support is going to be cut to pieces in an assault against a position held by enemy tank(s). A particular tank advocate has stated that a single Tiger, with no real support, will be able to virtually annhilate the entire Infantry force.

I was wondering if you could test out the following scenarios, and get back to me with your results please. I have attached the map, and a photo of the terrain that map that you need to simulate. You can use any game system that you think appropriate, but it should be something you consider to be accurate. I think I know which system you will choose, but since I am going to post this request up on the forum (without your contact details), I do not want to be seen as influencing your choices.

The map image I have attached is at a scale of 1 hex = 250 yards. The lighter shades are elevated terrain, and the village is about 700 metres long, and 400 metres wide. There are two town squares within the village. There are open areas around the village for between 1200 metres, to the south, and about 800 metres to the east, west and north. There are no other German forces in the area, You know there are germans in the town, but dont know strength, or disposition. You must take the town in twelve hours (before nightfall). Finally there is a sealed road running up the western side of the village, which I have assumed also passes through the village itself

If possible, I would like you to test two possible scenarios

Scn 1
Allied Forces

Allies must start south of the town...

100 Infantry armed with Piats and small arms only, ie no dedicated AT guns
20-30 combat engineers, unlimited supply of stores (eg mines)
24x 25 pdrs (have unlimited supplies of smoke
3-4 75mm armed tanks (ie no fireflies or 76 mm armed tanks)
1-2 scout cars
All forces are fully motorised or mechanized, your choioce of transport, but trry to be mainstream please, would suggest halftracks/Bren Carriers and quads perhaps,
The allied forces must start a minimum of 200 yards from the town


Axis
1 x Tiger VI, with elite crew and ace commander, plus one OP with radio. There is no other German Infantry support
The situation is this. Germans are in control of a small village, allies must capture the village to win the battle

Scn 2
Alied Forces
Allies must start south of the town...
80 Infantry armed with Piats and small arms only, ie no dedicated AT guns
15-20 combat engineers, unlimited supply of stores (eg mines)
24x 25 pdrs (have unlimited supplies of smoke
3-4 75mm armed tanks (ie no fireflies)
1-2 scout cars
All forces are fully motorised or mechanized, your choioce of transport, but trry to be mainstream pleaseCN
The allied forces must start a minimum of 200 yards from the town

Axis
3 x Tiger VI, with elite crews and ace commander, plus one AC (suggest PSW 234) with radio. There is no other German Infantry support
The situation is this. Germans are in control of a small village, allies must capture the village to win the battle


You can use any game system that you want to playtest this scenario out. Would appreciate your result as soon as you are able. I am not going to tell you my opinions and my own test results, so that i do not influence your results in any way.

The map and photo is attached

Let me know if you have any questions

Regards

Michael"

We will have to wait a few days perhaps for the results