 | Infantry of World War 2| WW2 General Discuss Infantry of World War 2 in the World War II - General forums; It would be interesting to compare them in a shoot out.... |
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09-07-2005, 06:32 PM
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#106 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,800
| It would be interesting to compare them in a shoot out. |
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09-07-2005, 09:47 PM
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#107 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 1,902
Country: | The german 7,92 mm round had more energy and range than .303
Accuracy ?....I think that they had the same. 
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09-08-2005, 01:04 AM
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#108 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,057
Country: | I may be wrong but I believe the K98 had half the range again as the Lee Enfield IV.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. |
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09-08-2005, 02:38 AM
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#109 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,800
| There is of course a difference between the range of the bullet and the accuracy of the weapon.
The .303 was used in early WW1 Lee Enfields with a volley sight that was ranged from 2000 yards to a staggering 3,900 yards. The idea was that a volley from a body of men at a large target such as a Cavalry formation would do some damage even if individual accuracy was impossible.
During WW1 they deleted the volley sight as it obviously not required. I don't know the figures for the 7.92 but the .303 clearly had more than enough power.
As for the accuracy of the rifle the Lee Enfield was very accurate for the time. All Lee Enfields were bench tested before being issued to the army to meet minimum standards. The very best were taken off to specialist manufacturers who fitted the sights, cheek pieces and tuned the rifle for issuing to the army.
One of the keys to the accuracy of the Lee Enfield was the length of the barrel. If its too long the bullet will have expended most of its energy before the bullet reaches the end of the barrel and a slight suction effect takes place which induces the bullet to fly less smoothly in the air reducing accuracy. If its too short there is a certain amount of energy which hasn't been transferred to the bullet again causing vibration and in extreme cases can cause a nasty kick/vibration in the rifle such as in the Lee Enfield Mk 5 carbine which wasn't a success.
The standard Lee Enfield had just the right length of barrel. The Mauser was shortened in 1935 and the charge in the cartridge wasn't changed to compensate. In normal use it made little if any difference, but at long range or where you want supreme accuracy it did make a difference.
The British snipers were also allocated special ammunition that had been made to higher standards than normal issue ammo. I believe the same happened in the German Army. |
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09-08-2005, 01:26 PM
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#110 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | Like I said I dont think the K98 was the best weapon, but it is a joy to shoot like the M1 Grand.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-17-2005, 09:02 AM
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#111 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 1,902
Country: | Female russian snipers at training with Tokarev stv-38.
I am asking myself...That was the girls that accounted sor some 200-300 german soldiers kills..?, ....hmmmm it dont think so...it smell fishy. 
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09-17-2005, 09:53 AM
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#112 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | Hmmm chicks with guns.....Cool.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-17-2005, 08:20 PM
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#113 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 580
| Quote: |
It would be interesting to compare them in a shoot out.
| The Mauser's recoil is straight back.
In a wind tunnel the Mauser wins, otherwise the Mosin-Nagant, SMLE and Kar98k draw. Quote: |
I don't know the figures for the 7.92
| An Australian in North Africa survived a shot (or shots) to the head with one of those things!
I suppose its the tumble that kills. Quote: |
Various tricks have been used to increase the probability of a bullet tumbling; the British .303 Mk VII bullet had a lightweight tip filler with the weight concentrated towards the rear of the bullet, and the current Russian 5.45mm rifle bullet has a hollow tip.
| Taken from: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ballistics.htm
NB: The Russians nearly got into trouble for deliberately using the former principle in the AK-74 round.
The 5.56mm is the same, though I think not so much in the new NATO SS109 - however this is an accidental(?) feature. Quote: |
It is noteworthy that the commercial loadings will perform at up to 400 fps lower impact velocity than some of the reloading brand bullets, which translates into extended effective lethal range. Here too, we see a trend which explains the effectiveness of many an "obsolete" cartridge whose kinetic energy figures simply pale in comparison to many high powered rounds of today. With a bullet matched in its metallurgical characteristics to the velocity of the rifle (or handgun), performance equivalent or even surpassing that of chamberings of greater theoretical power could be achieved. This is because, as alluded to earlier, an instantaneous kill through massive trauma is not more effective than a kill which drops the animal inside 50 to 100 yds; a level of lethality which can be achieved rather easily with far greater penetration. The X-Bullet is being touted as a phenomenal slayer of game, yet it is clear from the penetration (fully 33 % greater than most conventional designs) and the narrow profile of recovered bullets that the wound channel is of more modest dimensions than that produced by many bullets (see actual test results hereafter). Similar observations have been made of the long heavy bullets used in low-velocity loadings of the .303 British, .30-40 Krag, 6.5 x 54 mm (aka .256) Mannlicher-Schoenauer and 7 x 57 mm Mauser from the turn of the century. These cartridges, considered "underpowered" by contemprary standards, were considered phenomenal slayers of very large game, including the largest species of African antelope, elk, moose, and even grizzlies.
| Taken from: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...s/methods.html Those things are well diddy, make a hell of a blast and have massive rubber butts!
Also the SMLE just feels right, has a pistol grip etc.
That Russian bird in that pic is holding the magazine?? |
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09-18-2005, 12:45 AM
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#114 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | Quote: |
Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer Quote: |
It would be interesting to compare them in a shoot out.
| The Mauser's recoil is straight back.
In a wind tunnel the Mauser wins, otherwise the Mosin-Nagant, SMLE and Kar98k draw. | The Mauser is a joy to shoot atleast for me.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-18-2005, 02:34 AM
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#115 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK
Posts: 3,505
Country: | I think the SMLE is the finest army bolt action weapon ever produced
Bisley's One mile club who had the joice of any weapon for there target competitions used the SMLE right up into the seventies the repetative accuracy of the Enfield was unsurpassed .
My brother who was a gunsmith for Leech & Sons during the late sixties worked on most army rifles for collectors and he said the quality of the componants eg trigger sears, breech and general rifle machining on the Enfield was of a very high quality and much superior to the Mauser , the worst being the Japanese Arisaka
__________________ "Only thoses who lose freedom know it's true worth" Unknown French woman interviewed June 1944 |
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09-18-2005, 12:42 PM
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#116 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
Posts: 1,902
Country: | The SMLE action is fine, but the Mauser 98 bolt are stronger, in here and others countrys, there is some hunters that make modifications to the 98 action from Argentine Army Mausers M1909 ( originally for the 7,65mm x 54 ) and convert it to a large caliber weapons, I have seen this modifications even for the 458 Winchester Magnum.
The bolts face diameter is the limit.
You can find more info in here: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/classics/ct0405_1909/ http://www.surplusrifle.com/argentin...bine/index.asp
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09-18-2005, 01:02 PM
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#117 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cordoba - Argentina
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Country: |
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09-18-2005, 01:16 PM
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#118 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | The Mauser can be compared to todays AK-47 in the fact that it used by so many different countries and hell even made by so many different countries.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-18-2005, 01:30 PM
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#119 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK
Posts: 3,505
Country: | The SMLE would be no good for hunting its a soldiers gun for people killing if you want to hunt you buy a hunting rifle converting army rifles for hunting is a bodge job it would be like using an Express 600 for shooting ducks or a 12 bore for sniping.
__________________ "Only thoses who lose freedom know it's true worth" Unknown French woman interviewed June 1944 |
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09-18-2005, 01:32 PM
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#120 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | Not necessarily true. I know people that hunt with Mausers and they have no problem with them.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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