Japan and the Soviet Union

[Glider]

Does anyone know how well the Japanes would have fared in a Russian Winter?

[parsifal]

Well Manchuria is not much better than the depths of Siberia in terms of the cold, and parts of Japan are significantly colder than the relatively mild climates of western Europe. Japanese units in Manchuria were given as standard issue, a fur lined, double breasted coat with hood. They also were issued with fur lined boots and mits. However these items were probably less efficient against the cold than the Russian Valenki or the waterproof fur lined polaschubuk overcoats ansd similalrly waterproofed and quilted telogreika pants and undercoats. These and other items of clothing were unique to the Soviet army. The thick valenki boots were made of specially made compressed felt, were easily the best footwear of any combatant in the snow as were the similalry designed furlined mittens used by the Soviet winter troops. My wifes grandmother was married to a Siberian Cavlryman and she knitted some wolly socks for me (which I still have. These socks use a special knitted stitch that I never have see before....its is incredibly dense and easily the warmest woollen socks I have ever owned, easily superior to even the modern synthetic textiles availble today. Those funny little Russian peasant women that we all tend to laugh at know how to make clothes that are perfectly suited to the extreme Russian conditions......

The Germans did eventually try to copy this type of clothing but it was never as efficient as these domestically spun items in the Soviet Army. The difference was that the Soviets knew and had developed their items of kit from centuries of experience with the freezing cold conditions in Russia, whereas nationalities like the germans, whilst experiencing the cold conditions of western europe, had little experience with the utter mind numbing cold of the Russian steppes.

My German stepfather (yes, I have a german stepfather, and a Russian wife with a proud ancestry with the Siberian soldiery) tells me that it was quite common for soldiers to freeze to death whilst on sentry duty, or even whilst just taking a leak. He says that the german army, from top to bottom was totally unprepared for the conditions they had to face in that first winter. The equipment was only part of the issue, it was also psychological.

Whilst I doubt that the Japanese personal kit was quite as good as that issued to the frontline Siberian troopers, I do think that psychologically they were more ready for the Siberian winters than the Germans were.

[renrich]

During the Pacific War, Japan had around 1 M troops in China. If those or a large part of those had been used against Russia, they Japanese attack on the Soviets would have been formidable. I believe it is by no means certain that FDR could have gotten the American people and Congress ready to declare war on the Axis. If Japan had pulled troops out of China to attack Russia, FDR would have lost one of his arguments for war against the Axis, as he and his administration were very pro-Chinese.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by renrich

During the Pacific War, Japan had around 1 M troops in China. If those or a large part of those had been used against Russia, they Japanese attack on the Soviets would have been formidable. I believe it is by no means certain that FDR could have gotten the American people and Congress ready to declare war on the Axis. If Japan had pulled troops out of China to attack Russia, FDR would have lost one of his arguments for war against the Axis, as he and his administration were very pro-Chinese.

Maybe, but this then overturns one of the parameters of the scenario....namely a war that continues to involve China. Are the parameters now changing such that somehow Chiina is no longer in the war. How could the Japanese pull out 1 million men from the Chinese TO to concentrate on Russia, without massive and dire consequences if the Chinese (and the allies, less the US), were still in the war????

Your statement also fails to take into account that the US was planning on entering the war anyway, around March or April of 1942. It also fails to take into account the much enhanced level of Lend Lease that would arise from a continuing neutrality of the US forces

[Amsel]

Originally Posted by renrich

During the Pacific War, Japan had around 1 M troops in China. If those or a large part of those had been used against Russia, they Japanese attack on the Soviets would have been formidable. I believe it is by no means certain that FDR could have gotten the American people and Congress ready to declare war on the Axis. If Japan had pulled troops out of China to attack Russia, FDR would have lost one of his arguments for war against the Axis, as he and his administration were very pro-Chinese.

What if Japan not only pulled out of China to show some "goodwill" towards the US while it redeployed its troops, but signed a non-agression deal over the Phillipines.

[m kenny]

I got the data from here

Axis History Forum • View topic - On Russian tactics being responsible for high casualties

10th post down. There are some qualifiers under the frostbite numbers.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by Amsel

What if Japan not only pulled out of China to show some "goodwill" towards the US while it redeployed its troops, but signed a non-agression deal over the Phillipines.

If Japan did that there would be no reason for the US to enter the war, but not for the reason you think. The principal result of that action would be an internal collapse of the government in Japan, and a very high likelihood of a full blown civil war. Under those circumstances, there would be no invasion of the Soviet Union.

The inevitability of a conflict between Japan and the US goes all the way back to Commodore Perry in 1851. From that point on, the US and Japan were set to a collision course that was unavoidable unless major changes occurred in the national pschologyy of wither or both nations. The US stood for Open Door and free trade, but still essentially a colonialist approach to Asia (even if they cannot admit that). The Japanese were far more overtly imperialist, into spheres of influence, closed blocs and the like. The two philospohies are so antipathetic to each other that a war was always going to be the only way such a difference was going to be resolved, l

[Amsel]

I see, and agree somewhat. I was more interested in the USN heading out to the Atlantic and Med in full force to deal with Germany and Italy, which was deemed much more important then anything in the Pacific. That would allow Japan a little more breathing room for its invasion of Russia. With Churchill so adamant about making sure that Europe was first priority, then Roosevelt would have much less of a reason to attack Japan. I am familiar with Japans' Southern Strike Plan as well as Plan Orange and the Rainbow Plans. War was inevitable but without the catalyst would the US attack Japan or steam full strength into the Atlantic to rescue Churchill?

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by Amsel

I see, and agree somewhat. I was more interested in the USN heading out to the Atlantic and Med in full force to deal with Germany and Italy, which was deemed much more important then anything in the Pacific. That would allow Japan a little more breathing room for its invasion of Russia. With Churchill so adamant about making sure that Europe was first priority, then Roosevelt would have much less of a reason to attack Japan. I am familiar with Japans' Southern Strike Plan as well as Plan Orange and the Rainbow Plans. War was inevitable but without the catalyst would the US attack Japan or steam full strength into the Atlantic to rescue Churchill?

It might have been possible for japan to delay the entry of the US, by some measure of appeasement on their behalf. However by 1941 the US was so entrenched in its opposition to Japanese aggression that only a full withdrawal from China (and I suspect very strongly this included Manchuria), would placate their resolve to go to war over it.

So whilst it was japanese aggression that provided the raison detre for war, it was the US that was very much calling the shots that led to war. If they did not want war, all the US had to do was to relax the embargo conditions, but i can only see that happening if Japan gives up all of China. That was something never likley to happen.

What surprised the Americans was the absolute audacity of the Japanese attacks. Nobody ever thought the japanese would attack the US Pacific Fleet in Pearl. The US administration accepted an attack into the Philipinnes, perhaps even Malaya, but a surprise attack into Pearl....not possible....or so they thought. Moreover, it was thought that the "superior" US airpower in the form of the B-17s and the fighters on Luzon could deal an effective blow to Japanese air and sepower in the region. They obviously over-estimated the strength of their own hand, and under-estimated the abilities of the japanese in this assessment. They also had obviously never studied the modus operandi of every major Japanese offensive since 1895, and had not paid all that much attention to the events in Europe....Taranto in particular

[Soren]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Hi MK

I dont support Sorens statement either, which is essentially that irt was the weather that defeated the Germans and on his figures, virtually no casualties due to Soviet action.

Parsifal please don't put words into my mouth. I never claimed that hardly any German were killed due to Soviet action, plenty were! But the fact still remains that hundreds of thousands died due to the winter cold alone, and this no doubt had a dramatic effect on the outcome of the war.

The winter of 41 & 42 stalled the German advance and reduced it to a crawl. The soldiers could hardly complete even the most simple of daily tasks because of the cold and the fact that they weren't wearing the proper winter clothing.

By 1943 measures had been taken to solve the issue much better than previously, and most troops outside of Stalingrad did recieve winter equipment & clothing by this time, but not the 6th Army. And it was the 6th Army which most crucially needed it.

[proton45]

I have just one more thought on the issue..."If" Japan never attacked the USA, would the average American soldier have been as resolute in the face of prolonged combat as they where after Pearl Harbor? The attack on PH really galvanized American attitude towards involvement in an "all out" war of attrition...

At the least it would have set Americas involvement in the war back by a couple of years...

[Juha]

Soren
In the photo in your message #198 all the Germans seems to have proper warm overcoat and ears covered so they were better clothed than many of the German PoWs taken during winter 41/42.
And I wonder why you think that troops of 6th A needed more crucially winter clothing than the troops further north?

Quote:"that hundreds of thousands died due to the winter cold alone"

When? What reasons are incl? And most importantly, your source? As M_Kenny wrote, frosbite deaths were ca 3500 during winter 41/42 which was a hard winter and to which Heer wasn't prepared.

Proton
the motivation point is a good one. The USA involvement to war is more complicated question, FDR was seeking confrontation with Axis at least most of 41. Sooner or later something so big might have happened that would have made it possible for US to enter war. Also IIRC at least Halsey was in very agressive mood already before PH so it wasn't impossible that something that could have escalated into war would have happened sooner or later.

Juha

[Soren]

Juha, look at their uniforms once more, it AINT std. German winter uniforms. The clothing they have on in that picture is mostly improvised by use of different pieces of cloth etc etc. The overcoat you're looking at, the M36 Wool overcoat, was suited for mildly cold weather only, it was not suited for -30 degree winter!

Here's what the Germans needed and were waiting for(German WInter Parka):

[Juha]

Checked by myself. In Heer, at all fronts and incl Ersatzheer 160237 men died in accidents, sickness etc non-combat causes from 1.9.39 to 31.1.45. So “hundreds of thousands died due to the winter cold alone” didn’t hold water. My source: Wehrwissenschaftliche Rundschau Sept 1962.

Juha

[Juha]

On winter parka
now that for camouflage, that would not keep you warm. Have used a same type in Finnish army. It’s good that it isn’t very warm cloth because during winter one needs much less clothing if one is marching through thick snow than when one is standing in guard duty. So what is important what one has under it. To survive in winter element the first importance is to keep warm so in that good overcoat is much better than a winter parka. So if you want to survive in -30 deg C I strongly recommended M36 wool overcoat over a winter parka if you have only normal cloaths under one of them. If you have a good woollen pullover etc and you want to be difficult to see in snowcovered enviroment, then the parka is the right choice.

Juha