Japan and the Soviet Union

[Soren]

Very true Parsifal!

The Soviets knew what they were doing when it came to winterclothing, and the Germans pretty much just copied them with the Wintertarnanzug uniforms, which were basically just improved versions of the dedicated winterclothing that the Soviets issued.

The std. German winter parka issued in 44 to 45 (Below). Note the grey colour instead of the previous white, this was altered because the white easily got stained, removing the snow white camoflage effect, and was difficult to wash. Thus the white was changed to grey, and simple thin trouser & jacket sheets were issued to be put over instead in snowy conditions. These thin sheets were also a lot easier to clean. The autumn camoflage was generally kept throughout and could be shifted to in seconds by turning the coat inside out.

[parsifal]

What this Soviet Kit looked like.....

the white garment was not the thermal layer, it serves primarily as camourflage, as wind protection, and as a waterproof layer. The thermal protection was derived from the quited gament and the Valenki boots also shown in these figures

[Soren]

Another German padded parka, this one from 1944 (Note the rectangular pattern):

[renrich]

FB, I understand that Japan wanted the land and resources of China and that is why, according to some historians, they started WW2 in 1937 by invading China. However, the conquest of China did not benefit the Japanese as much as they had hoped and I think it is plausible, assuming the Japanese military was rational, which is a big assumption, that the Japanese could have decided their interests might be better served by acting as a good ally to Germany by supporting the 1941 attack on Russia with troops from the China forces and winding up with theoretically a chunk of western Russia, Malaya, Indo China, the East Indies and perhaps Australia. In retrospect that should have satisfied even Japan. China is a big country, but I have recently read that around half of China is above 5000 feet which really cuts down on arable land. China was not as big a prize as Japan imagined it would be and it kind of acted in the role of a tar baby for the Japanese. Anyway, this is all fantasy but at least is fun to speculate about.

[Soren]

Yeah lets get back on topic.

As I've already stated the Japanese just needed to occupy as many Soviet soldiers & material in the east as possible, making life easier for the Germans in the west.

The combined Japanese airforce (IJNAF & IJAAF) was gonna have no trouble against the VVS, they would've quickly obtained air superiority in the region. But on the ground the Japanese were gonna have to fight hard. The a/c would provide a lot of help, but most of the job had to be finished by the troops on the ground.

In terms of infantry equipment on an individual basis the Japanese & Soviets were the equals of each other, and in terms of available tanks there wouldn't be much difference either. The Soviets however could muster heavier artillery, so the Japanese had to counter that with their bomber force.

The next challenge for the Japanese was the eventual winter fighting, the Soviets were more familiar with this. It would probably take several months before the Japanese got it proper sorted.

So while I believe that the Japanese would advance steadily, it wouldn't be a cake run, but it didn't have to be either. The Germans were delivering the killing blows in the west, the Japanese just had to add that extra pressure needed to stay on track once Hitler made his major mistakes.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by renrich

FB, I understand that Japan wanted the land and resources of China and that is why, according to some historians, they started WW2 in 1937 by invading China. However, the conquest of China did not benefit the Japanese as much as they had hoped and I think it is plausible, assuming the Japanese military was rational, which is a big assumption, that the Japanese could have decided their interests might be better served by acting as a good ally to Germany by supporting the 1941 attack on Russia with troops from the China forces and winding up with theoretically a chunk of western Russia, Malaya, Indo China, the East Indies and perhaps Australia. In retrospect that should have satisfied even Japan. China is a big country, but I have recently read that around half of China is above 5000 feet which really cuts down on arable land. China was not as big a prize as Japan imagined it would be and it kind of acted in the role of a tar baby for the Japanese. Anyway, this is all fantasy but atleast is fun to speculate about.

Ren

what are the chinese doing whilst all this adventuring with the japanese army is occurring?

[Juha]

Soren
Look your photo in your message #193 inside the hood of the upper white camo parka one sees the green redbrown non-winter camo, so one can turn it over and use it also in summer. Are you suggesting that Germans were using their warmest cloth also as summer camo suit or at least spring/autumn camo. And everyone can see that the parka is made from rather thin material and thickness is very important for insulations.

Here we think that many thin layers is much better than one thick, first of all because one can easily add or remove a layer as needed according the temperature or workload, under hard work muscles generates lot of heat and one not need so much clothing, when one stops one needs warmer cloth and easiest way to get one is to add one or two more layers not to change from one overcoat to thicker one. That’s why camo suits are rather thin as the parka in your photo. So one could use it irrespective the temp.

Parsifal
IMHO the finnish system is better in Northern European environment, in Arctic, Antarctic, Northern Canada and NE Siberia one might need a bit more insulation.
The Valenki boots were great as a child I had ones. It's huopasaapas in finnish.

Juha

[Juha]

Renrich
Japanese needed the resources but especially the markets of China, hundreds of millions potential customers for their products.

And as I wrote Soviets had more light automatic weapons, more heavier mortars and arty so they were better equipped for forest fighting. And forests shields well troops from air attacks even if IMHO VVS wuold have been clearly harder nut for Japanese than Soren thinks. Nomonhan made a significant impact also to JAAF thinking.

Juha

[Clay_Allison]

I only see this as potentially workable if the Japanese attacked Russia but NOT China and the other Asian nations. If the US saw Imperial Japan attacking a communist regime that was not well regarded here, who is to say we wouldn't SELL the Japanese weapons?

Imagine them driving into the Russian far east in Shermans and Jeeps.

[parsifal]

Originally Posted by Juha

Soren

Parsifal
IMHO the finnish system is better in Northern European environment, in Arctic, Antarctic, Northern Canada and NE Siberia one might need a bit more insulation.
The Valenki boots were great as a child I have ones. It's huopasaapas in finnish.

Juha

Juha

Accepted. I think it goes without saying Finns knew best of all how to fight in the cold

[Juha]

Clay
SU wasn't a big bad bear to FDR's administration, or to many US industrialist in 30s, most Soviet trucks were SU made Fords from late 30s onwards because Ford sell a big lorry factory to them, US also sell to SU aviation fuel even during the Winter War IIRC and IIRC one big tyre firm sold a big tyre factory there and a US naval architect firm made BB design for Soviets.
Japan on the other hand was seen as a treat and as wrote earlier was punished by harsh economic sactions because of its actions in China and Indo-China.

Juha

[Amsel]

The Japanese did not have a whole lot to fear on the high seas as well. The IJN clearly outmatched the USN in ships and tactics from WWI and on. The Japanese were a major threat to the Pacific rim.

[renrich]

Michael, the Chinese did not make a great deal of effort to fight the Japanese during WW2, especially the Communists. They were more interested in fighting one another and stealing from the people. Chiang made just enough effort to keep the US sending support. Mao was more interested in getting ready for the struggle when the war was over. They both fought one another as much or more than the Japanese. The idea of China being a market for Japanese goods in the 1940s is far fetched. China was very poor and had little buying power for manufactured goods. The FDR administration did not regard the Soviet Union as a major threat during WW2. Churchill continually tried to get FDR to understand the Russian menace but failed. FDR actually wrote that, after the war, the Soviets would become more like us and we would become more like them. Prophetic!

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Amsel

The Japanese did not have a whole lot to fear on the high seas as well. The IJN clearly outmatched the USN in ships and tactics from WWI and on. The Japanese were a major threat to the Pacific rim.

Hard to see that except in hindsight. The US Pacific fleet was seen as at least equal to the Japanese, and if the British could muster a smaller fleet, they would outnumber the Japanese 3 to 2 in everything except aircraft carriers, which would be about equal. This was the thinking in the fall of '41

Originally Posted by Clay_Allison

I only see this as potentially workable if the Japanese attacked Russia but NOT China and the other Asian nations. If the US saw Imperial Japan attacking a communist regime that was not well regarded here, who is to say we wouldn't SELL the Japanese weapons?

Imagine them driving into the Russian far east in Shermans and Jeeps.

Not doing to get too far in a Sherman vs a KV I.

It still doesn't work Clay, because capturing China was the whole reason for the Pacific war, it was like the "Lebensraum" for the Japanese. They were willing to sacrifice everything for this.

Originally Posted by renrich

Since I was the one who started this discussion, I don't recall that having Japan continuing to invade China was part of the scenario. .

It's not really possible to see how they would do this. The Japanese intent was to subjugate China, which was weak at the time, and the Japanese preferred to avoid conflict with the US & Europeans, at least until the late 40's when their industrial base would be bigger

Originally Posted by renrich

I said that the Japanese would only attack the British in China(Hong Kong) and Malaya and the Dutch in the East Indies and not the US at PH..

The scenario could be plausible - but if the Japanese still keep the front open in China. It would be possible
to attack Russia using 70 or 80 thousand, drawn from the troops that would have been used to attack the Philippines.

Originally Posted by renrich

If they decided to launch an offensive against the Soviets to help their allies, Germany and Italy, they might very well have discontinued any advances in China or even pulled back from that country..

Not likely, as there not nearly as much of value in the Soviet Far East, compared to China. The Japanese showed almost zero interest in "helping their allies", as the 3rd largest source of lend-Lease aid to Russia was made through Vladivostok by Russian freighters, under the noses of the Japanese fleet!

Originally Posted by renrich

Japan could have held it's gains in China and conquered most of Southeast Asia including Australia with all the natural resources included..

Australia was never in their plans, it was seen as too difficult and too far away
Southeast asia WAS in their long term plans, just not as soon as 1941-1942

Originally Posted by renrich

Hitler could have have ceased submarine warfare against Britain,and negotiated a truce with that country, maintained his gains in Europe and subjugated Russia..

That was exactly what he tried, but Churchill refused. The British stranglehold on German imports, continued bombing of German targets, and meddling in operations {ie Greece, Yugoslavia, Aid to Russia meant that no truce was possible

Originally Posted by renrich

Course, if Hitler and Tojo, et al, had been rational, they would probably have not started the war at all.

Indeed, had the Axis cooperated even a quarter as much as the Allies, they could very well have beaten Russia & China

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Juha

Look your photo in your message #193 inside the hood of the upper white camo parka one sees the green redbrown non-winter camo, so one can turn it over and use it also in summer. Are you suggesting that Germans were using their warmest cloth also as summer camo suit or at least spring/autumn camo. And everyone can see that the parka is made from rather thin material and thickness is very important for insulations.

Sorry Juha but again you are wrong. The camo you see on the inside (dark brown, light green etc) & outside (White) of the Parka I presented is the German late autumn/winter camoflage pattern, it was NOT used in the summer. The camoflaged summer uniforms or smocks which you seem to be refering to are a lot thinner and NOT meant for winter! The padded Parka in post #193 is thick and meant for winter use only, it was NOT worn in the summer (Unless one wished to get a heat stroke ofcourse). I've tried on several of these pieces of clothing at reenactment fairs, and during my stay in the miltary we wore similiar type Parkas in snowy winter conditions such as in Norway & Greenland, having been to both places many many times. Only time we wore something even thicker was when we went out on long expeditions in Greenland, we wore thick anoraks for that.

Same padded Parka as in post #193, part of the Wintertarnanzug series:


Another German padded parka, this one with Autumn Oak camo:


And here's a camoflaged summer uniform smock (BIG difference from the Parka!):


As for the magnitude of layers, there you are right however, but a thick overcoat like a winter Parka is always needed when the temperature is at or below -30 degrees Celcius. Staying warm at such a temperature is hard enough as it is.