Japan and the Soviet Union

[The Basket]

The main problem is why would the Germans want the Japs to attack the USSR?

It was going to be all over in 6 weeks. Split the winnings with some non master race types...fat chance.

And by the time it was going wrong, the Japs were doing there own play.

And in 1941, the Germans had no western front and were stronger in comparison to their Soviet foes and still lost. If they were not winning in 1941 then they were never going to win.

[Lucky13]

I think that an attack mounted by the IJN on the Russians and their Pacific fleet, like the one on Pearl Harbor, would have been more devastating for them than the USN.
The Russians didn't have anywhere near the same power on the oceans like the USN or RN. I think that IJN could operated relatively freely outside Vladivostok. What could the Russian Navy possibly have put up against the IJN and its carriers and battleships?
I think that that the Japanese could have, not easily but near enough, landed somewhere in Golden Horn Bay and with Korea and parts of China already under them....

[vikingBerserker]

I think the Soviets would have again traded space for time. Even while battling Germany, Russia kept sizable forces in their Eastern sections. Does that area have any natural resources that would have made it worthwhile for Japan?

[The Basket]

For sure...the Japs could have invaded territory but could they have marched onto Moscow...

Deal with the main threat and deal with Japan later. Trade land for time just like in the west.

oil oil oil...strategy is driven by strategic need. And having a Navy is no good on the Steppes.

[Amsel]

Originally Posted by renrich

To add a little spice to the discussion, what if the Germans had treated the people in the occupied area of the Soviet Union humanely and the Japanese had done likewise in China. This scenario is starting to look scary.

If the Germans treated the Russians humanely then there could have been much more available manpower. The morale was not that great in the Red Army until the Soviets were winning. At Stalingrad much of the German Army was made up of Russians. There would always have been communist partisans in China and the Soviet Union, but in the USSR a counter-revolution could have been started if the people on the collectives were treated better then they were under the Stalinist goverment. Its hard to say.

[michaelmaltby]

Renrich - come on !! You can't add those kind of what ifs! How the Germans and Japanese treated those they considered inferior was part of what makes them ruthlessly effective. Might as well add: what if Stalin hadn't purged his officer corps in the late '30s.

MM

[proton45]

The Japanese Army had their hands tied by the Emperor in Mongolia...It is difficult to say the role that Japanese air superiority would have played in the ground battles had they maintained their successful momentum from early on. Early in the Mongolian campaigns the Japanese had established a very strong offensive in the "air" with several successful engagements with the Russians. However the Emperor was furious with the generals who had crossed the border into the Russian zone, and he forbade the airforce from further campaigns against the Soviet airfields...their for the Russians where able to replace their lost aeroplanes and the IJA airforce lost their initiative in the air...That little tid-bit didn't help on the ground.

[renrich]

Hitler had signed the alliance with Italy and Japan in 1940 so realistically they were his allies. He did make an effort after the defeat at Stalingrad to get Japan to help out with the Soviets. By then it was too late. michaelmaltby, I agree that it is unrealistic to expect the Nazis and Japanese to quit being racists. I was just speculating that if the Japanese and Germans had treated the people in the conquered territories humanely, they would have not needed nearly as many garrison troops. The Japanese actually planned to occupy Australia with, by 1950, two million Japanese there. They were not to be allowed to intermarry with Anglos. in order to keep the Japanese blood pure. It is interesting how big a role racism played in the war. Japan thought the American people were soft and indolent and would not be good fighters and would not support a long war. The Japanese thought the other Orientals in China, Burma, etc were inferior also. Once the war got started with Japan's initial success, the Japanese became over confident. The Americans initially thought the Japanese were a bunch of near sighted, buck toothed, midgets that would be incapable of fighting a modern war. After Pearl Harbor and the fighting in Malaya, the Philipines and the Dutch East Indies, the Americans were somewhat intimidated by the Japanese but Guadalcanal proved they could go one on one with them and the vicious brutality of the Japanese made the Americans feel the Japanese were sub human and needed to be exterminated. Likewise, Hitler believed that the Germans were the master race and especially the races in the Soviet Union were inferior and could not stand up to the Wehrmacht. He was overconfident and initially felt he needed no help in conquering Russia.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Glider

I do not believe that Zero's would have been made available. The IJN and IJAF didn't co-operate on anything, they didn't even share the same rifles, machine guns or 20mm cannons. Why on earth would they share aircraft, it would be a serious loss of face to the Air Force and nothing would allow that. There is also the point that in the Spring of 1942 not all IJN units had been equipped with the Zero and I am confident that the IJN would put them first.

So what you're saying is that matters of pride between each armed branch within the Japanese army would prevent them from cooperating in a war against the Soviets? That's really one of the most far fetched ideas I've heard in a long time.

If the Japanese emperor had decided to cooperate with the Germans and do he best to beat the Soviets in the east then you can be sure he'd pour both the IJN & IJA in full force and have them cooperate. During the a lot of Zeros operated from land based airfields in the Pacific, and so if the war was to be raged in the Soviet Union then they'd simply be located there instead.

Originally Posted by Glider

If the Japanese are not applying pressure then they are not a threat. If they are applying pressure they are wide open.

Wide open ? To what ? The US ? They weren't gonna hit the Japanese, if so they would've done waay before they invaded China.

Originally Posted by Glider

This is a major assumption with very little to back it up. The only technology that I can think off that was used by the Japanese was the DB601 which the Japanese didn't do well with and were better sticking to what they knew Radials, and the 20mm MG151 which was used on some versions of the Ki61. The Jet information was much too little, much too late and not used by the Japanese and a similar statement goes with the Me163.

No it is not major assumption Glider, and you need to pick up you reading again cause the Japanese were given a lot of technology by the Germans near the end of the war. And most of it was hastily put to use, esp. the jet technology!

By wars end the Japanese were working on copies of the Me-262 & Me-163 fighters.

In your replies you have not commented on the basic weakness of the structure of the Japanese Army units, the equipment they were issued with or the lack of transport. With these problems they stand no chance.

The equipment they were issued with in 1941 wasn't much worse than that of the Soviet army Glider. Remember that this is before the Soviets started recieving lend lease equipment.

[Soren]

The prime task of the Japanese invasion would be to hold up large portions of the Soviet armed forces, which they no doubt could have easily achieved. This would divert pressure away from the German eastern front. A further and even more important advantage was the lack of a war against the US, this meant loads more fuel, equipment and manpower available for the Germans in the east. And this alone would've been enough to ensure a Soviet defeat at Stalingrad and later Moscow, with the capture of the caucasus region being secured as-well, boosting the German drive through Russia significantly.

Meanwhile the Japanese needed but to advance slowly but steadily towards the west. They weren't gonna be in a hurry. All they needed to achieve was tying up the Soviet forces in the east. The IJAF would station masses of fighters and bombers in the east, following the advance of the troops and striking as far inside the Soviet Union as they could. The goal to destroy as much of the Soviet reserve and industry as possible. And seeing that the Germans weren't fighting the US in the west and had lads more manpower & material at the ready in the east, they'd be having a much easier time defeating the Soviets even without the help of the Japanese, nessicating all of Russia's reserves to be diverted against the Germans, which in turn would leave the eastern border completely exposed to the Japanese invasion.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

When was Stalin on his knees begging for peace? I don't remember reading that anywhere. In fact Stalin gave orders that no Russian soldiers were to retreat. Seriously, when was Stalin on his knees begging?

While I agree that Germany could have defeated Russia, Stalin was not begging for peace. Not at Stalingrad or at any other time.

He was, by the time the Germans had 90% of the city Stalin was very close to begging for peace. The changing situation kept him from doing so. His personal secretary recollected all this in a documentary not so lng ago.

[Amsel]

The Germans could have beaten Russia and were in my opinion very close to doing so. Blundering away the advantage at Leningrad, near Moscow, and Stalingrad was the death of them though. It was like God addled their brains and caused them to make huge tactical errors.

[Soren]

I agree completely Amsel.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

He was, by the time the Germans had 90% of the city Stalin was very close to begging for peace. The changing situation kept him from doing so. His personal secretary recollected all this in a documentary not so lng ago.

A source please that we can all reference?

[Njaco]

So what you're saying is that matters of pride between each armed branch within the Japanese army would prevent them from cooperating in a war against the Soviets? That's really one of the most far fetched ideas I've heard in a long time.

Reminds me of Goering and his hold on the Luftwaffe or any airplane to the exclusion of the Navy. Wouldn't let Kreigsmarine have bombers or anything. There even was an argument over torpedoes.