Japan and the Soviet Union

[Colin1]

Looking at a political map of Russia

http://www.russiamap.org/images/full/political-purp.gif

most of the urbanisation is in European Russia, Asian Russia has vast tracts of open territory. I can't think of a tactical reason why the USSR would station valuable troops (at least, not in any significant concentration) in the middle of these open spaces, when the threat would almost certainly come from the west.
This has two aspects that favour the Axis, it will be just as hard to meet the invasionary force as it would be for the invaders themselves to make progress - just as the Japanese have to advance westwards, the Soviets, if they intend not to disregard the threat from the east, will have to transport troops and equipment to a point where they can take the war to them.

Secondly, with the US not about to descend upon them, the Nazis would likely take European Russia, assuming Hitler doesn't do anything silly like committing resources to urban warfare etc. With the most densely populated area fallen (along with the capital), Asian Russia would fall piecemeal. The WWII Soviet Union was bereft of the same standards of communication into mid- and far eastern Russia, which was populated almost entirely by peasants.

The bulk of Soviet forces would be highly likely trying to protect the European (capital city-containing) Russia, the Japanese could content themselves with being the largest nuisance raider in history, knowing that Soviet interference would be just as difficult for the Russians as invasion was for the Japanese. There would likely be provision for rudimentary airstrips in Asian Russia, these would be difficult to find for the Soviets, whilst the Japanese aircrews knew exactly where the Soviet airstrips were.

If the Soviets committed enough resources to settle the Japanese problem, they'd leave themselves wide open in European Russia, if they didn't, they might even have trouble locating the Japanese in the quasi-10th century wilderness of the interior and far east.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

A source please that we can all reference?

I'll have to find the documentary then, it was specifically about Stalin. But I remember it very clearly, esp. the part about Stalingrad where the secretary noticed how worried he was at one point, and understandably so as the Germans could've easily won the entire war within a few months at that point had it not been for a few truly mindbuggingly idiotic decisions by Hitler.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

I'll have to find the documentary then, it was specifically about Stalin. But I remember it very clearly, esp. the part about Stalingrad where the secretary noticed how worried he was at one point, and understandably so as the Germans could've easily won the entire war within a few months at that point had it not been for a few truly mindbuggingly idiotic decisions by Hitler.

Being worried does not equate to begging on your knees for peace. I seriously doubt that Stalin ever was thinking about begging for peace...

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Colin1

Looking at a political map of Russia

http://www.russiamap.org/images/full/political-purp.gif

most of the urbanisation is in European Russia, Asian Russia has vast tracts of open territory. I can't think of a tactical reason why the USSR would station valuable troops (at least, not in any significant concentration) in the middle of these open spaces, when the threat would almost certainly come from the west.
This has two aspects that favour the Axis, it will be just as hard to meet the invasionary force as it would be for the invaders themselves to make progress - just as the Japanese have to advance westwards, the Soviets, if they intend not to disregard the threat from the east, will have to transport troops and equipment to a point where they can take the war to them.

Secondly, with the US not about to descend upon them, the Nazis would likely take European Russia, assuming Hitler doesn't do anything silly like committing resources to urban warfare etc. With the most densely populated area fallen (along with the capital), Asian Russia would fall piecemeal. The WWII Soviet Union was bereft of the same standards of communication into mid- and far eastern Russia, which was populated almost entirely by peasants.

The bulk of Soviet forces would be highly likely trying to protect the European (capital city-containing) Russia, the Japanese could contend themselves with being the largest nuisance raider in history, knowing that Soviet interference would be just as difficult for the Russians as invasion was for the Japanese. There would likely be provision for rudimentary airstrips in Asian Russia, these would be difficult to find for the Soviets, whilst the Japanese aircrews knew exactly where the Soviet airstrips were.

If the Soviets committed enough resources to settle the Japanese problem, they'd leave themselves wide open in European Russia, if they didn't, they might even have trouble locating the Japanese in the quasi-10th century wilderness of the interior and far east.

Yup. And that is why the USSR wouldn't last even 5 months in such a situation, they were simply too hard pressed by the Germans alone, even when the Germans were fighting in the west as-well. A US standby would've been the ultimate deathblow to the USSR, and Japanese involvement in the war against the Soviets would've just settled the matter even more swiftly.

The advance in the east would be slow for the Japanese no doubt, but only because of the geographical situation, not because of Soviet resistance. The Japanese would also rely mostly on horse drawn transport, which mostly means slow but steady & reliable progress. The Japanese army was well fit for long distance fighting.

As for numbers, the Japanese army consisted of roughly 2,250,000 professional soldiers in 1941, and over 4,500,000 trained reserves or what you'd call 2nd rate infantry In short more than enough to tie up huge amounts of Soviet reserves.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Being worried does not equate to begging on your knees for peace. I seriously doubt that Stalin ever was thinking about begging for peace...

The secretary said that he was very close to "beg for peace" at one point, he was convinced they were gonna loose at one point.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

So what you're saying is that matters of pride between each armed branch within the Japanese army would prevent them from cooperating in a war against the Soviets? That's really one of the most far fetched ideas I've heard in a long time.

The fact remains that they didn't co-operate in the war against the USA, so the question has to be why would they co-operate in a war against Russia. Far from being far fetched it by far the most likely situation as its backed up by history.

If the Japanese emperor had decided to cooperate with the Germans and do he best to beat the Soviets in the east then you can be sure he'd pour both the IJN & IJA in full force and have them cooperate. During the a lot of Zeros operated from land based airfields in the Pacific, and so if the war was to be raged in the Soviet Union then they'd simply be located there instead.

The keu part in this statement is 'If the Japanese Emperor' The emperor was not making the decisions, the Military were making the political and economic decisions, he was an ineffectual figurehead.

Wide open ? To what ? The US ? They weren't gonna hit the Japanese, if so they would've done waay before they invaded China.

Wide open to the Russian Tanks, artillery and ground attack forces. The Japanese army had no effective tanks, few Artillery pieces, very poor small arms, few anti tank guns and those they had were very poor plus no ground attack forces and I keep mentioning it they lacked transport. The minute they come out to move forward the Japanese Army is very exposed.

No it is not major assumption Glider, and you need to pick up you reading again cause the Japanese were given a lot of technology by the Germans near the end of the war. And most of it was hastily put to use, esp. the jet technology

By wars end the Japanese were working on copies of the Me-262 & Me-163 fighters.!

Again your comments support my statement. I said that they gave the technology too late and in insufficient quantity to enable the Japanese to use them, I didn't say they didn't give the techology. The Japanes jet fighter was largely all japanese. They did get some technical information around the swept wing which was incorporated but the jet engine (Ne-12) was designed and built by a joint Japanese Navy/Nakajima team headed by Captain Tanegashima and Tameji Yamada. Note this wasn't a joint Navy/Airforce team.
The amount of technology transfer on the jet engine was one photograph of a cross section of the BMW003, no technical details or measurements were included. On the basis of this the Japanese incorporated the axial compresser design of the BMW003 and developed the Ne-20. So the much vaunted technology transfer of the jet engine amounted to one photograph.
As you point out the technology was as you pointed out near the end of the war, as I said, too late to make a practical difference.

The equipment they were issued with in 1941 wasn't much worse than that of the Soviet army Glider. Remember that this is before the Soviets started recieving lend lease equipment.

The Japanese Army was poorly equipped compared to the Russian Army in the spring of 1942 and there was much less of it. They didn't need Lend Lease equipment.

[Soren]

Again you need to pick up the books Glider, the Japanese Ki-201 was very close to a direct copy of the Me-262! And so was their version of the Me-163.

And why was the technology handed out so late you think ? Because the Germans & Japanese weren't fighting a war together. Had they fought together information would've flowed between them from start to finish, and the Japanese would soon have fielded a lot of German inspired equipment.

Originally Posted by Glider

Wide open to the Russian Tanks, artillery and ground attack forces. The Japanese army had no effective tanks, few Artillery pieces, very poor small arms, few anti tank guns and those they had were very poor plus no ground attack forces and I keep mentioning it they lacked transport. The minute they come out to move forward the Japanese Army is very exposed.

Russian tanks & artillery ? What Russian tanks & artillery ? The ones they need against the Germans ?

The only tanks the Soviets would have ready for operations in the east where the likes of the small T-26, which I may say weren't much better than what the Japanese had. And as for ground attack forces, the Japanese was as well equipped as the Soviets in this repect at this point in time.

And regarding transport: Mostly horse drawn, but reliable. The Japanese also had some VERY good prime movers which many people often overlook! So regarding the issue of transport the Japanese have got it sorted.

[Colin1]

Originally Posted by Soren

And regarding transport: Mostly horse drawn, but reliable. The Japanese also had some VERY good prime movers which many people often overlook! So regarding the issue of transport the Japanese have got it sorted.

It's worth noting
that the Cold War Soviet Union used enormous numbers of horse-drawn artillery and for very good reason, when a tracked piece breaks down, repair can be a serious issue. When horses break down, replace the horses.

Horses refuel themselves when you park up for the night.

[Soren]

Roger that Colin1.

Horses and esp. mules are also very good at negotiating terrain which not much motorized equipment can cope with.

[michaelmaltby]

" ... It was like God addled their brains and caused them to make huge tactical error ..."

Yes, and his initials were A.H.

MM

[vikingBerserker]

Interesting read from the site: Khalkhin-Gol: The forgotten battle that shaped WW2 | Siberian Light
(I'd never heard of Khalkhin-Gol until imalko mentioned it)

How Khalkhin-Gol changed the course of history

"The battle of Khalkhin-Gol decisively showed the expansionist Japanese military that it was not a match for the Soviets – particularly while Japanese forces were still bogged down throughout China. The Soviets under combined their forces to stunning effect, while Japanese tactics remained stuck in a pre-modern mindset that valued honour and personal bravery more highly on the battlefield than massed forces and armour.

When Hitler finally invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 the Japanese, although tempted to join the attack, remembered the lessons of Khalkhin Gol and decided to remain on the sidelines, ensuring that the stretched Soviet military could focus its forces on just one front. This, in turn, meant that Nazi Germany was forced to fight a four year war on two fronts – against the Soviets in the East, and the British and Americans in the West.

Defeat at Khalkhin-Gol can also be seen as a major factor in the Japanese decision to expand into the Pacific. As expansion to the North-West was no longer an option, ill defended and scattered colonial territories made far easier targets. Even the United States was deemed a less formidable adversary than the Soviet Union and, if the Japanse had not lost at Khalkhin-Gol, they would surely have never attacked Pearl Harbour."

[Amsel]

They thought the Americans were a bunch of weak playboys whose women wouldn't let them fight.

[Soren]

A lot of tactical blunders were made by the Japanese in that battle. But then again, even if they hadn't made these mistakes they couldn't have ever defeated the Soviets alone.

[proton45]

Khalkhin-Gol was never an "official" campaign...it was more of an "Incident". Its difficult to consider what plans might have been made in Tokyo if Japan had "planned" to move across the border...although its fair to say that their where some military men who thought a provoked incident might force Japan to become involved in expansion across the river...and that the (then) present state of the "on-hand" forces of the IJA where more then enough to deal with the Russians. One can not say how Japan might have done things if they had made plans in Tokyo for a prolonged engagement...Just as the IJN realized that they need a fighter with the performance of the A6M to engage a campaign in the Pacific, the IJA may have realized they need heavy armor in Mongolia...

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

Again you need to pick up the books Glider, the Japanese Ki-201 was very close to a direct copy of the Me-262! And so was their version of the Me-163.

The Ki-201 wasn't a close copy of the me262, it shared some of the aerodynamics certainly and as mentioned the engine was modified on the basis of the photograph, but a copy it wasn't. The me163 was a copy but as we both agree too little too late for both aircraft.

And why was the technology handed out so late you think ? Because the Germans & Japanese weren't fighting a war together. Had they fought together information would've flowed between them from start to finish, and the Japanese would soon have fielded a lot of German inspired equipment.

I must have missed something, but I thought that Japan and Germany were both fighting the USA and the UK.

Its also worth remembering that the Tripartite Pact signed by Italy, Japan and Germany in 1940 covered the technical assistance in Article 4
ARTICLE 4. With a view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, to be appointed by the respective Governments of Japan, Germany and Italy, will meet without delay

A more probable reason for the caution in exchanging technical details lies in the basic lack of trust between Germany and Japan caused by the signing of the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact in 1939, which significantly increased the risk to Japan of an attack by Russia.

So despite signing an accord that set out technical commissions and fighting a war for a number of years against a common foe, the basic flow of technology that enabled the Japanese to field improved weapons is I believe limited to the 20mm MG 151 and the DB601 which was hardly a success.
Also its hard to think of any examples where the Japanese Airforce and Navy shared anything let alone Japan and Germany.

Russian tanks & artillery ? What Russian tanks & artillery ? The ones they need against the Germans ?

The only tanks the Soviets would have ready for operations in the east where the likes of the small T-26, which I may say weren't much better than what the Japanese had. And as for ground attack forces, the Japanese was as well equipped as the Soviets in this repect at this point in time.

T26 and T28 tanks would do the job, but you are ignoring the fact that a small number of KV1 or T34 tanks would have the same effect against the Japanese as a Tiger against Sherman 75's. If Germany can spare a handfull of Tigers for Tunisia, then the Russians can spare a handful of modern tanks to face Japan.

And regarding transport: Mostly horse drawn, but reliable. The Japanese also had some VERY good prime movers which many people often overlook! So regarding the issue of transport the Japanese have got it sorted.

The fact that you have a good prime mover doesn't mean that you army has solved its transport problems.

Besides you still haven't given any details of those Japanes Anti Tank aircraft and the Japanese transport aircraft. Its a bit like the Army Transport situation. Japn built the DC3 during the war which was second to none and better than the Ju52, but no one is going to pretend that Japan had a transport fleet to rival the Luftwaffe.