Michael Wittman, Germany's Best Tank Commander.... - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

plan_D · 01-07-2005, 03:29 PM

Well, Fireflys are equipped with 17 pdr - early 76mm and later an improved 77mm (shorter) barrelled variant. Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944.

redcoat · 01-11-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

Well, Fireflys are equipped with 17 pdr - early 76mm and later an improved 77mm (shorter) barrelled variant. Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944.

No, that would be the JS-2 with its 122mm gun and 120mm of frontal armour.
The Sherman Firefly was the best Western Allied tank.
Also, the Firefly was only equipped with the 17pdr (76.2mm).
The 77mm gun only saw service with the Comet (A34) tank in early 45,

plan_D · 01-11-2005, 10:35 AM

Most people in this world refer to the Western Allies as the Allies, and the Soviets as a different entity. I am keeping with that trend, so I'll repeat "[The Firefly were] Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944"

And there were tests with the 77mm 17 pdr on the Firefly.

redcoat · 01-11-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

Most people in this world refer to the Western Allies as the Allies, and the Soviets as a different entity. I am keeping with that trend,

No they don't.
Your just making this up as you go along.

Quote:

so I'll repeat "[The Firefly were] Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944"

You can repeat it as many times as you want, your still wrong

plan_D · 01-11-2005, 11:27 AM

No, you'll find that the Western Allies are refered to as Allies. It's always been like that.

And I see your another one that just states numbers without looking at the combat potential. The IS-2 had 120mm frontal armour, which looks impressive but it was crap! The Panther could destroy it at 800 m with a direct hit when the Soviets claimed it was invincible.

Bringing all aspects of a tank (manuverability, ease of produce, durability, chance of strike, armament, armour, fuel consumption etc.) the Firefly could still be argued as the best of both Soviet and Allied armies.

redcoat · 01-11-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

And I see your another one that just states numbers without looking at the combat potential. The IS-2 had 120mm frontal armour, which looks impressive but it was crap! The Panther could destroy it at 800 m with a direct hit when the Soviets claimed it was invincible.

The Panther could destroy a Firefly at twice that range, because the frontal armour on the Firefly was only 50-76mm.

Quote:

Bringing all aspects of a tank (manuverability, ease of produce, durability, chance of strike, armament, armour, fuel consumption etc.) the Firefly could still be argued as the best of both Soviet and Allied armies.

Did ypu know that until late September 44 the Firefly was only equipped with AP ammo, it was only after that, that the Firefly received HE ammo.

plan_D · 01-11-2005, 08:08 PM

I know, the Panther was good. My personal favourite and possibly the best tank of the war (Panther Ausf G), design anyway.

And did you know the IS-2 only carried 28 rounds!

01-11-2005, 08:16 PM

of course you know what would happen with a high velocity 8.8cm round of AP coming from a Königstiger could do to an IS 2 or 3.

true the Panther ausf G was a fantastic maschine in the hands of a skilled crew

plan_D · 01-11-2005, 08:51 PM

A round coming from the 8.8cm KwK43 L/71 on a Tiger II would rip the IS-2 apart at over 2000 kilometres.

redcoat · 01-12-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plan_D

A round coming from the 8.8cm KwK43 L/71 on a Tiger II would rip the IS-2 apart at over 2000 kilometres.

Amazing. You mean a Tiger II tank could KO a JS-2 in Moscow, while it was still in Berlin.
I knew it was a good gun, but I didn't know it was that good.

plan_D · 01-12-2005, 10:30 AM

Something went wrong there. I meant 2000 metres, obviously. The KwK43 L/71 had 152mm penertration at 2 km.

Erich · 01-12-2005, 11:54 AM

To a Soviet tank crew it probably felt like they got hit from 2000 km.

the accts that I have read from the German involving the Königstigers of the W-SS 503rd Schwere Panzer Abt. really indicate an almost overwhelming presence when they combated Soviet T-34/85's and JS I and II tanks in the Pommern/Danzig and towards Berlin.....

Erich ~

Erich · 01-12-2005, 12:18 PM

this maybe of interest ? Karl Brommann with the head bandage and his Abteilung Kommandeur Herzig in the Black Panzer uni. Ceremony or just a moral booster in front of severl well marked Königstigers of the unit, spring 45 Brommann had knocked out some 66 plus soviet tanks/vehicles with his big boy gun and crew

lesofprimus · 01-12-2005, 09:37 PM

Great pic.....

plan_D · 01-13-2005, 08:16 AM

It is a great pic. The KwK43 barrel has seen some action on that thing. I don't know if you have read the Duel at Dessau thread about a King Tiger Vs. Super Pershing?

The King Tiger had mixed experiences on the eastern front. Soft ground and poor weather gave it a lot of trouble at 68 tonnes it was a beast.
This picture was taken sometime during the Ardennes offensive 1944, as far as I know. It's one of my favourite pictures from the war.

01-07-2005, 03:29 PM	#16
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	Well, Fireflys are equipped with 17 pdr - early 76mm and later an improved 77mm (shorter) barrelled variant. Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-11-2005, 10:35 AM	#18
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	Most people in this world refer to the Western Allies as the Allies, and the Soviets as a different entity. I am keeping with that trend, so I'll repeat "[The Firefly were] Brilliant tanks, best the Allies had in June 1944" And there were tests with the 77mm 17 pdr on the Firefly. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-11-2005, 11:27 AM	#20
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	No, you'll find that the Western Allies are refered to as Allies. It's always been like that. And I see your another one that just states numbers without looking at the combat potential. The IS-2 had 120mm frontal armour, which looks impressive but it was crap! The Panther could destroy it at 800 m with a direct hit when the Soviets claimed it was invincible. Bringing all aspects of a tank (manuverability, ease of produce, durability, chance of strike, armament, armour, fuel consumption etc.) the Firefly could still be argued as the best of both Soviet and Allied armies. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-11-2005, 08:08 PM	#22
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	I know, the Panther was good. My personal favourite and possibly the best tank of the war (Panther Ausf G), design anyway. And did you know the IS-2 only carried 28 rounds! __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-11-2005, 08:51 PM	#24
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	A round coming from the 8.8cm KwK43 L/71 on a Tiger II would rip the IS-2 apart at over 2000 kilometres. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-11-2005, 08:16 PM	#23
Anonymous Guest Posts: n/a	of course you know what would happen with a high velocity 8.8cm round of AP coming from a Königstiger could do to an IS 2 or 3. true the Panther ausf G was a fantastic maschine in the hands of a skilled crew

01-12-2005, 10:30 AM	#26
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	Something went wrong there. I meant 2000 metres, obviously. The KwK43 L/71 had 152mm penertration at 2 km. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

01-12-2005, 11:54 AM	#27
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 10,770	To a Soviet tank crew it probably felt like they got hit from 2000 km. the accts that I have read from the German involving the Königstigers of the W-SS 503rd Schwere Panzer Abt. really indicate an almost overwhelming presence when they combated Soviet T-34/85's and JS I and II tanks in the Pommern/Danzig and towards Berlin..... Erich ~ __________________ Rip it up !

01-12-2005, 09:37 PM	#29
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 17,490	Great pic..... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk

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