Museum sheds light on Canada's wartime effort - Page 6 - Aircraft of World War II

zoul310 · 07-06-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

BombTaxi - as a Canadian I sincerely thank you for your intelligent words. I started on the same vein some time ago - but after your "appalling" observation to Sys I realized that you were making my point better than I myself could.

I try not patronize people but in this case - with Sys - it is unfortunately unavoidable.

Sys is having a little "sport" with Canadians - turning our crank so to speak

Seen this behavior from American males - educated American males - who like to watch Canadians react. Such behavior usually takes place .... IN BARS. Understand what I'm saying, Sys?

So a little education and perspective is coming you way, respectfully.

What this thread - and many others in this otherwise wonderful forum - have revealed is that it is possible for otherwise intelligent people - males - to get further and further off topic - and the further away from topic they get the deeper they dig in. [Soren's Germany-Japan-Russia thread is a classic ongoing example of this -- just how far things can progress beyond common sense logic + facts].

Canada's participation militarily and economically in WW2 can NOT be discussed in isolation from WW1. In both - Canada punched way, way, way beyond it's weight. What our American friend refuses to acknowledge is that the true measure of a country's value as an ally is its participation as PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION and GDP. And as our American friend knows from his own country's experience (sadly) the measure of participation is VOLUNTEER participation. Canada has never fielded a conscript force in modern times.

Canada lost an entire generation of Canadian young men in their very Promise and Prime ... (Britain, France, Germany, Australia etc also did) in a way that the US who was late to the party by THREE YEARS did not experience. That is not a criticism of the US - that is simply fact.

Having fought in EVERY major WW1 battle and continuously being deployed as SHOCK TROOPS - in 1918 the Canadian Army [Canada's 100 Days) rolled back the German Army - taking more ground and more prisoners than their MUCH LARGER American ally with their great equipment and good rations.

Those Canadian men who died 1914-1918 did not live to have the sons of their own to go to war in 1939. And the ones who did return in 1918 -- many had lost the desire or instinct to reproduce -- my moms two brothers and dad being examples dear to my heart.

Sys .. don't talk baseball-stats-WW2-history to me cause it doesn't mean a thing. Percentage of population (volunteer) participation and % GDP are the only honest measures and if you'd stop and think for a moment you realize I am right.

But keep cranking buddy ... I got the clutch depressed and the spark retarded

MM
Toronto

Very well put. Respect.
If you don't understand WW1 you don't have any clue for WW2.

syscom3 · 07-06-2009, 10:40 PM

Canada's role in WW2 was the Atlantic. Not the Pacific, so dont even try to offer proof of a token and ill advised defense of HK in 1941 as being proof they served everywhere.

Canada's production? The US certainly used your country to increase the efficiency of production. But by 1944, the US had so much capacity, it dwarfed yours. By madnitudes. And even Britains industrial production was far above yours.

But it was only Australia that fought both the best the axis could offer. They were the true heavy hitters of the small countries that really did make a difference in victory or not.

And by the way, WW1 was two decades before the second world war. Its quite irrelevent what Canada did in the first war.

zoul310 · 07-06-2009, 11:07 PM

WW1 was the cemetery for many countries and many of them never recovered from these losses as explained by MM (this is valid for France as well).
I cherish what the US did but :
For many years the only reference for people living in occupied europe were these : The BBC and the RAF. Churchill voice and the sight or the noise at night (my mom remembers vividly) of the RAF were their only sights of hope.
Inside these planes all countries were represented, poles, french, dutch, canadian, australian, NZ, belgium, Czhec, americans and I forget many.
UK was the receptacle for hope and that should never be forgotten.

Contribution of a country cannot be reduced to an operational theater. When men give their life they all contribute equally in the tomb. Atlantic war was fundamental.

And don't forget that the deal between Roosevelt, Churchill and Staline was : Germany first.
Pacific became a secondary theater in effect.

BombTaxi · 07-06-2009, 11:13 PM

Further proof that you have no idea what you are on about sys. What Canada did in WW1 is massively relevant - like France, the UK, Germany and Italy, but unlike the US, Canada had most a generation killed or wounded during the Great War. These countries also suffered huge political and industrial upheaval as a result of the conflict, which materially affected their ability to contribute to WW2, and their very reasons for becoming involved in it. In fact, WW2 could not have happened without WW1 - and that includes much of the Pacific war too. That much is elementary European history.

Personally, I believe the Canadians did have an impact on the final victory - they sent divisions to the ETO, built and manned thousands of bombers, and assisted in keeping the North Atlantic lifeline open. How you can dismiss any of these actions as trivial is truly beyond me. Maybe you should read up a bit more on the contribution of the Commonwealth armies before you go running them down.

And what is it with you and belittlling countries that fought hard? Your arrogance really is awful. You seem to think that the US made the only worthwhile contribution to the war, yet by your own logic the US contribution is miniscule when placed next to the massive losses and huge industrial activity of the USSR. Or are you going to deny that as well and say the Russians only won because of Lend-Lease?

zoul310 · 07-06-2009, 11:14 PM

The problem with that kind of post is that you put ranks. Now you are going to tell me that I don't like americans and don't appreciate their efforts.

I do. Let me tell you I do.

BombTaxi · 07-06-2009, 11:19 PM

Thats my point entirely zoul, Syscoms idea of 'ranking' countries by the 'significance' of their contribution is insulting and senseless. I agree with everything you said in your previous post though; I was trying to work out my own reply when you posted it

Amsel · 07-06-2009, 11:22 PM

I think that lend lease helped the communists beat Germany.

zoul310 · 07-06-2009, 11:23 PM

A frog and a Rosbif... Incredible !

Amsel · 07-06-2009, 11:40 PM

But I'm not anti-Canadian, and I never make fun of Canada even when every other American is. Though I must admit I did chuckle quite a bit during the movie "Canadian Bacon".

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 07-07-2009, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

They were the true heavy hitters of the small countries that really did make a difference in victory or not.

There he goes again! Just like the energizer bunny, wind him up and let him go!

If I were a soldier who fought in WW2 I would bitch slap you! To say that the blood spilled by any soldier did not contribute to victory is a slap in the face.

Everyone pay no attention to sys, he lives in a very narrow world. Outside of his little California home, there is nothing else.

lingo · 07-07-2009, 06:07 AM

[QUOTE=DerAdlerIstGelandet;525270]

Everyone pay no attention to sys

The fact that this has been a polite and mannerly discussion from the beginning rather proves that people have realised that syscom3 is a saddlebag (or 2)short of a camel load. His myopia is extreme and I blame too much viewing of American TV for his attitude. He might care to read some authoritative history books instead of depending on patrioteering TV recycling the works of the Dream Factories.

michaelmaltby · 07-07-2009, 08:36 AM

Sys - whatever so say, Buddy. Whatever ..... mind the step.

MM

Catch22 · 07-07-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amsel

I think that lend lease helped the communists beat Germany.

That wasn't what he meant, all he meant was that the ONLY reason the Soviets won was because of lend-lease. It certainly did help enormously, but there was no single reason why the Soviets beat the Germans.

michaelmaltby · 07-07-2009, 12:04 PM

The following link has some statistics [which you may choose to credit or not ] but the casualties as % of population are very revealing .. as is the Commonwealth casualty total VS the US total.

Worth noting.

World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MM

michaelmaltby · 07-07-2009, 12:14 PM

Compare-contrast with same for WW1. Again noting Commonwealth vs US.

Sys is correct that - as a % of population - in both WW1 and 2 the Australian contribution was outstanding.

That said - Canada's industrial contribution in both wars exceeded Australia's.

World War I casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MM

07-06-2009, 10:40 PM	#77
syscom3 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 10,277	Canada's role in WW2 was the Atlantic. Not the Pacific, so dont even try to offer proof of a token and ill advised defense of HK in 1941 as being proof they served everywhere. Canada's production? The US certainly used your country to increase the efficiency of production. But by 1944, the US had so much capacity, it dwarfed yours. By madnitudes. And even Britains industrial production was far above yours. But it was only Australia that fought both the best the axis could offer. They were the true heavy hitters of the small countries that really did make a difference in victory or not. And by the way, WW1 was two decades before the second world war. Its quite irrelevent what Canada did in the first war. __________________ "Pilot to copilot..... what are those mountain goats doing up here in the clouds?"

07-06-2009, 11:13 PM	#79
BombTaxi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brownhills, W. Mids, UK Posts: 1,189	Further proof that you have no idea what you are on about sys. What Canada did in WW1 is massively relevant - like France, the UK, Germany and Italy, but unlike the US, Canada had most a generation killed or wounded during the Great War. These countries also suffered huge political and industrial upheaval as a result of the conflict, which materially affected their ability to contribute to WW2, and their very reasons for becoming involved in it. In fact, WW2 could not have happened without WW1 - and that includes much of the Pacific war too. That much is elementary European history. Personally, I believe the Canadians did have an impact on the final victory - they sent divisions to the ETO, built and manned thousands of bombers, and assisted in keeping the North Atlantic lifeline open. How you can dismiss any of these actions as trivial is truly beyond me. Maybe you should read up a bit more on the contribution of the Commonwealth armies before you go running them down. And what is it with you and belittlling countries that fought hard? Your arrogance really is awful. You seem to think that the US made the only worthwhile contribution to the war, yet by your own logic the US contribution is miniscule when placed next to the massive losses and huge industrial activity of the USSR. Or are you going to deny that as well and say the Russians only won because of Lend-Lease? __________________ Good generals think about tactics. Great generals think about logistics. "If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution." - Nye Bevan "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee" - John Donne, Meditation XVII

07-06-2009, 11:19 PM	#81
BombTaxi Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brownhills, W. Mids, UK Posts: 1,189	Thats my point entirely zoul, Syscoms idea of 'ranking' countries by the 'significance' of their contribution is insulting and senseless. I agree with everything you said in your previous post though; I was trying to work out my own reply when you posted it __________________ Good generals think about tactics. Great generals think about logistics. "If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution." - Nye Bevan "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee" - John Donne, Meditation XVII

07-06-2009, 11:22 PM	#82
Amsel Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,732	I think that lend lease helped the communists beat Germany. __________________ http://www.northstarnational.com/200...tte/#more-2513

07-06-2009, 11:23 PM	#83
zoul310 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19	A frog and a Rosbif... Incredible ! Last edited by zoul310; 07-06-2009 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Mistake !

07-06-2009, 11:07 PM	#78
zoul310 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19	WW1 was the cemetery for many countries and many of them never recovered from these losses as explained by MM (this is valid for France as well). I cherish what the US did but : For many years the only reference for people living in occupied europe were these : The BBC and the RAF. Churchill voice and the sight or the noise at night (my mom remembers vividly) of the RAF were their only sights of hope. Inside these planes all countries were represented, poles, french, dutch, canadian, australian, NZ, belgium, Czhec, americans and I forget many. UK was the receptacle for hope and that should never be forgotten. Contribution of a country cannot be reduced to an operational theater. When men give their life they all contribute equally in the tomb. Atlantic war was fundamental. And don't forget that the deal between Roosevelt, Churchill and Staline was : Germany first. Pacific became a secondary theater in effect.

07-06-2009, 11:14 PM	#80
zoul310 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19	The problem with that kind of post is that you put ranks. Now you are going to tell me that I don't like americans and don't appreciate their efforts. I do. Let me tell you I do.

07-06-2009, 11:40 PM	#84
Amsel Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,732	But I'm not anti-Canadian, and I never make fun of Canada even when every other American is. Though I must admit I did chuckle quite a bit during the movie "Canadian Bacon". __________________ http://www.northstarnational.com/200...tte/#more-2513

07-07-2009, 06:07 AM	#86
lingo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Penzance Cornwall UK Posts: 131	[QUOTE=DerAdlerIstGelandet;525270] Everyone pay no attention to sys The fact that this has been a polite and mannerly discussion from the beginning rather proves that people have realised that syscom3 is a saddlebag (or 2)short of a camel load. His myopia is extreme and I blame too much viewing of American TV for his attitude. He might care to read some authoritative history books instead of depending on patrioteering TV recycling the works of the Dream Factories.

07-07-2009, 08:36 AM	#87
michaelmaltby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 224	Sys - whatever so say, Buddy. Whatever ..... mind the step. MM Last edited by michaelmaltby; 07-07-2009 at 08:37 AM. Reason: incomplete

07-07-2009, 12:04 PM	#89
michaelmaltby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 224	The following link has some statistics [which you may choose to credit or not ] but the casualties as % of population are very revealing .. as is the Commonwealth casualty total VS the US total. Worth noting. World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia MM

07-07-2009, 12:14 PM	#90
michaelmaltby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 224	Compare-contrast with same for WW1. Again noting Commonwealth vs US. Sys is correct that - as a % of population - in both WW1 and 2 the Australian contribution was outstanding. That said - Canada's industrial contribution in both wars exceeded Australia's. World War I casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia MM

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