The Nuclear decision...what if?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Civettone

If it's true that the V2 rocket project costed as much as the Manhattan project it would also mean it would have been possible for the Germans to collect the resources to build a nuke. Also remember that there is no reason to believe that the Germans would have needed as much resources as the Americans. The Germans usually designed and build new weapons with much less personnel and resources than the allies.

Kris

Go read the history of the Manhattan Project and then tell me Germany could have accomplished the same thing with less. The US and the UK had a bigger population, was far richer, had the advantage of having the key scientists and technicians.

Plus there was nothing the Nazi's could have done to bomb the industrial plants spread about the continental US.

[Civettone]

I already gave my answer. The Germans usually accomplished the same as the Americans with less. So I'm using the same logic for the nuke program.

The costs for both projects was about the same, close to US$2 billion.

It's true that Germany was being bombed. But yet the V 2 program succeeded.

Perhaps you're also underestimating the size of the German V 2 project. It was by far the largets German undertaking. It took years for the allies to get to their standard, even with the full cooperation of the German scientists. Just to give you an idea on how advanced the project was. It was no less impressive than the Manhattan one.

Kris

[delcyros]

My vote for the more impressive project goes to the US Manhatten project.
The V-2 is interesting but it would require an enlarged A-10 to carry a nuke intercontinentally via ballistic missile. this almost certainly was beyond german possibilities.

Germany also lacked proper funding of the nuke project. Mainly because Heisenberg refused to assure that it could be done in this war ( a statement he made in 1942!).

As it turned out, they at least had the prime ressources: Uranium. Germany was No. 1 producer of Uranium in prewar times and produced enough Uranium in ww2 to fuel the most of the soviet nuclear projects well into the late 50´s (without the material captured in Berlin, Viennes and Thuringia, the SU could not hope to agglomerate enough Uranium to start a pile in the 40´s according to Kurchatov).
They also had a number of enrichment facilities, betatrons and cyclotrons, altough compared to the Manhatten project these aren´t competetive in quantity.

So if the question is could they have done it, I have to say yes. But if the question is Could they have afforded the project in a briefer time than the Manhatten project the answer has to be NO-and that´s what counts finally. The one who has the bomb in possesion as first will win.

[Civettone]

That doesn't make sense. They spent as much money on the V 2 project as the Americans on the Manhattan project. So in terms of resources they definitely could have had their own Manhattan project. Of course they would have had to give up on their rockets completely.

Kris

[david johnson]

Originally Posted by Soundbreaker Welch?

Even a German nuclear warhead going off in a Vermont wheat field might scare a couple people!

they grow wheat in vermont?

dj

[syscom3]

The V2 program might have been big by German standards, but it couldn't come close to how big and complex the Manhattan Project was.

How many people know that the B29 program turned out to be even bigger than the Manhattan Project?

[Civettone]

The B-29 program bigger than the Manhattan project?

I'm sorry but that makes me feel that the Manhatten project wasn't all that gigantic.

In any case, what do you base your claim that the MP was bigger and more complex than the V 2 project?
Kris

[Graeme]

The making of the atomic bomb had been a prodigious enterprise, by far the most sophisticated large-scale effort ever made by man. According to Groves the cost was $2,000,000,000, and the workforce was more than 600,000. For comparison, the Great Pyramid, Herodotus relates, required a continuous force of 100,000 men working for twenty years; and the Great Wall of China may have involved 1,000,000 men.

From 'The Oxford Companion to the Second World War' edited by Dear and Foot, 1995.

[Civettone]

And yet the B-29 program was bigger??


Kris

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Civettone

And yet the B-29 program was bigger??


Kris

Yes, the B29 program cost more and ended up using more workers.

But the difference was the B29 was an technological push of existing technologies that was then mass produced.

The Manhattan Project was pushing a brand new science and developing totally new technologies.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

So yes, the German scientists helped the allies in developing the bomb. Your loss, our gain.

My loss ??! Are you serious ??!

For crying out loud Syscom, you've got to stop this little game of yours soon!



Civettone,

I agree with you completely.

I bet Syscom3 will be surprised to know just how much funding the introduction of jet technology into active service required. The V-2 project was very complex, so complex that it took the US longer to develop than it took them to develop the A-bomb - something which speaks volumes if you ask me.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by SoD Stitch

The Germans could've developed a deliverable nuclear weapon, maybe by '46, but there was too much disinterest in higher circles to support the atomic research that was going on in Germany in the late '30's/early '40's; Hitler considered atomic research a "Jewish scince" and, therefore, dismissed it out of hand (see David Irving's book The German Atomic Bomb: The History of Nuclear Research in Nazi Germany). Germany actually built the first operational heavy-water facility in Vemork, Norway before it was sabotaged by British commandos in '40.

They also had plans on the drawing board for a "boosted" V-2 capable of reaching the East Coast of the USA (it would've been the world's first true ICBM) known as the A-10 (there were also much larger rockets projected beyond this known as the A-11 & A-12). In theory, one of these "boosted" V-2's probably could've lofted an atomic weapon on the US, but the Germans were years away from that when the War ended.

What was the first 'sputnik' in 1957 - 137 pounds? The first delivered atomic bomb was 10,000+ pounds that the V-2 derivative would nearly have to put in orbit to reach the US! It took a Loooooooong time before a 100 pound nuc was developed.. what source discussed a reasonable payload for the advanced V-2A-11 or 12?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

My loss ??! Are you serious ??!

For crying out loud Syscom, you've got to stop this little game of yours soon!



Civettone,

I agree with you completely.

I bet Syscom3 will be surprised to know just how much funding the introduction of jet technology into active service required. The V-2 project was very complex, so complex that it took the US longer to develop than it took them to develop the A-bomb - something which speaks volumes if you ask me.

If the V2 was more complex a weapon to develop than the B29 or A-Bomb, then its no wonder Germany lost the war.

[Civettone]

Yet another in depth analysis by Syscom. At least now we know why the Germans lost the war...

Kris

[delcyros]

I am with Syscom3 on this.
And it should be recognized that the missile technology was hyper advanced but conventionel (the first rocket engined flight was well before ww2).

But the Manhatten project not only was hyper advanced but also unconventional. The amount of reserach done and the amount of infrastructure building is a non neglectable argument.