Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[HealzDevo]

Sounds interesting, so it would have been a less powerful Strumtiger would it? Certainly an interesting idea but yes, it was a little bit dumb. Indeed the Germans should have concentrated on producing a better tank that could be mass-produced quickly. Then the Germans would have overrun Europe very quickly with an ever-expanding number of tanks...

 

[CharlesBronson]

Sounds interesting, so it would have been a less powerful Strumtiger would it? Certainly an interesting idea but yes, it was a little bit dumb

I dont see any "dumbness", this tank would be a lot cheaper and simplier than the sturmtiger dinosaur, the IG 13 could shoot HEAT proyectiles , that fat hollow charge bullet would blew up tanks in case to found some. Limited range yes, but probably was designed for infantry support as the Brummbar and the IG 33 based on Pz III chassis.

 

[Lucky13]

....and maybe chosen to make a few more Jagdpanther than Jagdtiger. Wonder how many Tigers and Panthers they would have produced if they had concentrated to improve them, instead for all those side steps...

 

[CharlesBronson]

I dont how many, but more that is for sure.

and maybe chosen to make a few more Jagdpanther than Jagdtiger.

The Jagdpanther was a good vehicle but the Jagdtiger was another overkill, and resource eating Hitlerian dream. ( or I should say nightmare)

And talking about nightmares, check this, Grotte P-1000 on his way the front passing a french town.

 

[HealzDevo]

All I am saying is that a lot of these tanks took a lot of time and manufacturing skills to create. Also a lot of the German tanks were highly sensitive to environmental conditions. Just look at the early Panther and the early Tigers. Okay they did solve these problems but afaik the Sherman and the T-34 never really suffered from these problems. Okay the Js-1 and Js-2 did.

 

[Joe2]

Grotte P-1000

How big where those guns?

 

[CharlesBronson]

All I am saying is that a lot of these tanks took a lot of time and manufacturing skills to create

And I agree in the Jagdtiger and Sturtiger, both extremely heavy and not very rewarding for the Whermacht.

Grotte P-1000

How big where those guns?

Teorically 280 mm naval guns.

 

[Joe2]

JESUS!

Glad that monster never got into battle!

 

[Joe2]

It would only need to drive over a sherman to destroyit!

 

[CharlesBronson]

It would only need to drive over a sherman to destroy it!

The most sane thing to do for a Sherman crew if this monster is seeing is put reverse, get out and call some air support.

Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis. (IV) "Super Cölian" with 5,5 cm Flakzwilling Gerät 58:

The last attemp to arm a Panther ausf G with a medium caliber automatic weapon was the Flakzwilling 5,5 cm or "Super Cölian"

The 55 mm caliber weapon was an adaptation of the "gerat 58" naval weapon. this automatic cannon shot a 2,2 kilogram shell at 140 rpm .

Gerät 58

The muzzle speed was 1000 meters per second and the stimated efective ceiling 4500 meters.


The gun mantlets had to be extremely modified to accept the larger guns.

Detail of the turret for 55 mm flak.

Finally Albert Speer got completely tired of the slow development of the entire Cölian programme, and stated that this new Panzer had no place in the emergency production plan, the Cölian was cancelled definately in January 1945.

For more about the gun:

5,5 cm flak

 

[Joe2]

The germans had no need of such large tanks. There is no point of two 128mm guns. a single 88 or even 75 mm gun will do. It's madness.

 

[delcyros]

The P1000 should get the barrels from BC Gneisenau (guns removed in 1942). That are 11.1"/54.5 C34 naval rifles firing a 330Kg projectile (727lbs) with an estimated muzzle velocity of 2920 fps using RP/C38 (taken the gunwear into account this would equal to ~2800 fps using RP/C40).
Theoretical penetration is in excess of 580mm Face hardened armour, >600mm rolled hardened armour or >10ft. of concrete with steel reinforcement.
The remaining barrel life was about 150 full capacity charges per barrel but with respect to the unsurpassed armour penetration and the large charges it would be more practical to use reduced capacity charges (= 300 rounds remaining barrel life, muzzle velocity: ~2500fps) or even weak capacity charges (= 600 rounds remaining barrel life, muzzle velocity: ~2100fps). The original rate of fire is stated with cyclic 16-18 sec. but the hoists and power rammers of the P1000 were far less sophisticated than those of the naval turret so I would doubt any cyclic rate of fire larger than 20 sec. (equaling to 10 sec. firing intervals with the twin mount).
Armour protection (all KC n/new, face hardened):
front hull turret: 14.2"@ 35 degrees
hull sides: 8.7" vertical
turret sides: 10" @ 15 degrees
hull back: 7.9" @ 10 degrees
turret back: 9.9" vertical

The design aim for speed was somehow optimistic with 40 Km/h, this would equal to a comparably fast panzer.

The tank design must be considered as totally absurd and impractical. It would be a true fuel gulp, preventing it´s operational use in all but static defense. And despite a 10" armour, it would present a formidable target for TallBoy´s and Grand Slams.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Nice info. here some pic of this large guns.

Gneisenau - The Guns of the Gneisenau - Battery Ørland - Norway

 

[Joe2]

see, its madness! no allied tank had that much armour!

 

[CharlesBronson]

Teorically the Grotte P-1000 ratte should be a mobile heavy gun plataform to engage invation forces in France, and this force included cruisers and battleships, that was the purpose of those heavy kanonen.

 

[Lucky13]

Where do they get these ideas???

 

[CharlesBronson]

I dont know, cocaine maybe ?

 

[delcyros]

If You ask mewhat could have been the possible max. of a tank for the germans...

The less well known Porsche proposal for a 100t. tank from mid 1942:

Dimensions:
length: 8.42m
beam: 4.82m
height: 1.8m + 1.6m for turret

armement:
1 x 105mm/65C33 with elevation restricted to 20 degrees, 45 rounds per gun, firing a 15.8 Kg APCBC with 900 mp/s muzzle velocity. rof: ~15 rpm, firing cycle is 1 round all 4 sec.
1 x MG 151/15 on turret with 250 rpg

armour:
turret face: 200mm + 50mm Blende
turret sides: 100mm declined 25 degrees
turret roof: 60mm
turret rear: 120mm declined 10 degrees

upper frontal hull: 180mm declined 35 degrees
lower frontal hull: 60mm inclined 30 degrees
upper sides: 120mm declined 15 degrees
lower sides: 60mm + 15mm Schuerzen (later added by hand)
rear: 100mm inclined 25 degrees
bottom: 30mm
roof: 50mm

Engines:
2 x 750 hp Diesel units, electic drive (Posrsche)
max.speed: 20 Km/h offroad, 38 Km/h onroad
range: up to 490 Km

crew: 5-8

weight:
04.6t.--%--guns (including breech mechanism)
11.7t.---%--mounts (including power train, hoists turntable and sights)
01.4t.--%--ammunition
03.8t.--%--fuel, lubes and spares
66.6t.--%--armour:
--18.9t.--%--turret
--47.7t.--%--hull
02.0t.--%--engine
16.3t.--%--frame, suspensions, supprts, tracks
01.0t.--%--misc. weights, equipment

weight empty: 99.2t.
weight max: 107.4t.

 

[Joe2]

Any pictures?

 

[delcyros]

Not as far as I know. It´s only from a very preliminary design stage together with other discussed designs written on a tabulary page which can be found in the Breisgau archive.The proposal never had a chance because the difference in striking power between 105mm/65 and 88mmKWK43 was not large enough to justify the horrible weight. It´s entirely possible that it never was seriously intended to be designed rather than for comparison.