Rare & Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[Civettone]

I'm fascinated by that Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV. I believe it was an excellent way to extend the life of the Panzer IV project. The chassis with the sloped armour is basically identical to that of the JagdPanzer IV by Vomag. I did read that there would have been some problems with the tank versions to fit for instance the brakes and inspection hatches.

But it seems to me that the idea behind it was that this new suspension would have allowed the Panzer IV to increase its weight. That way sloped armour could be included. In fact, it could go even further. There were plans to put the Panther Schmalturm on a Panzer IV but it would have overburdened the Panzer IV suspension. This would no longer have been the case with the Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV. And finally, this added weight would have left the tank underpowered. The logical next step would have been to get a new engine. The 550 HP Maybach HL 101 was expected to be ready before the end of 1944. This was a supercharged version of the HL 100 which produced 400 HP, which was one third more than the Panzer IV Maybach engine.

One could say that the Panther was the way to go. But the Panther was quite limited: for its size and weight it had limited protection and firepower... The Einheitsfahrgestell would have had interlocking armour plates of a JagdPz IV which greatly simplified production. It would also be very reliable and easy to repair in the field, unlike a Panther.

In short, it would have been an excellent stopgap until the arrival of the E-50.

Kris

[Soren]

Originally Posted by m kenny

As for 12.8 cm guns with a muzzle brake the only one was the dual field gun/Pak version made in very limited numbers at the wars end,

That is incorrect however.

The Panzerselbstfahrlafette V also known as the Sturer Emil was equipped with a 12.8cm L/61 with muzzle brake which saw action in Russia in 1942 where it performed very well:

[m kenny]

These 2 vehicles were fitted with the 12.8cm AA gun (L/61)
This was not the same gun as the 12.8cm Pak( L/56).

[CharlesBronson]

I'm fascinated by that Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV. I believe it was an excellent way to extend the life of the Panzer IV project. The chassis with the sloped armour is basically identical to that of the JagdPanzer IV by Vomag. I did read that there would have been some problems with the tank versions to fit for instance the brakes and inspection hatches.

Is fascinating to see the several "lines" or "families" of tanks made or proposed by german designers, you got almost a expensive, a medium, and a cheap line of armored fighting vehicles, probably the Porsche designs with thier fancy petrol-electric drives were in the top of cost. However projekts like this last ones (vereinfachtem and Einheitfahrgestell) were quite feasible.

But it seems to me that the idea behind it was that this new suspension would have allowed the Panzer IV to increase its weight. That way sloped armour could be included. In fact, it could go even further

In that weight question I am not so sure, I think that 3 x 2 road wheels are more designed for medium /light tanks, after it would have a worst weight distribution( more pressure in each road wheel tha a normal 4x2 panzer IV suspension)


The definitive panzer IV,projekt W 1466

Proposal for the definitive Panzer IV by krupp, combination of a sloped armor ausf H hull with the vereinfachtem turm ( simplified) cancelled in July 1944 for unknown reasons, Weight 26.7 tons. Maximum armor 80mm, Other data unknown.

[Civettone]

Wow, those models are awesome. Beautiful lines there...

As to the weight vs wheels issue, I have my doubts whether the number of wheels matter. I mean, there are/were several heavy tanks which have less wheels than medium tanks. Also, the wheels on the Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV were not the same as on the Panzer IV, they were bigger. I've tried to calculate their size and they don't seem to be identical to either the larger Panzer II or III wheels. In any case, I believe the issue is the suspension which could not cope with the added weight and not so much the wheels. Although it is said that the new vehicle would use parts of the III and the IV, it seems that the suspension would have been a totally new one: still leaf-springs but new ones. So not those of the Panzer III either... In fact, one wonders what exactly the elements of the Panzer III were. Same concern goes for the Geschützwagen III/IV: the Panzer III only delivered the drive wheel, final drive and transmission.

In any case, we can assume that the new suspension was meant to cope with more weight. What else would have been the reason to go for a new suspension system??
Kris

[CharlesBronson]

In fact, one wonders what exactly the elements of the Panzer III were. Same concern goes for the Geschützwagen III/IV: the Panzer III only delivered the drive wheel, final drive and transmission.

The same goes for the Einheitpanzer, for some strange reason the transmition in the mark III was deemed as superior to the one in panzer IV.

In regard of the other you maybe are correct, but take in consideration this; from the large pool of heavy panzer projekts or protos displayed in this topic no one had leaf spring suspension, so I think the germans regarded this system as useful up to 25-30 tons.

[Civettone]

I also recall reading that Krupp refused to build anything without leaf springs ... don't know if that's true or not though


Kris

[CharlesBronson]

Hmmmm, dunno, that could explain why the design of the chassis of the Tiger was in hands of Henschel and Porsche.