| WW2 General Discuss Ready for El Alamein: ideal British tanks in the World War II - General forums; As results of lessons learned from Blitzkrieg of 1939-40, you, as the man responsible for tank development, have to create ... |
As results of lessons learned from Blitzkrieg of 1939-40, you, as the man responsible for tank development, have to create the armored force that would perform admirably within 2 years. You can choose building only lights, only haevies, or a combination of both. If you want to develop other AFVs based on your tanks, it's a plus
The hardware you develop is from British bits & bolts only; LL tanks will come in as they did historically.
Indeed, those ones wouldve' rocked
State of the art during 1942. And you get them via Lend-Lease.
Rather then worrying about 1942 Britain should be thinking about 1943 when Tiger and Panther tanks make their apearance. Britain needs the Comet tank during 1943.
Don't worry about 1942?Originally Posted by davebender
Heck there won't be a 1943 offensive if they lose in the desert in 41/42.
Dave, there would be no Shermans coming during 1942 except that after the fiasco at Gazala, Roosevelt pulled the Shermans from the US forces and sent them to the British. (originally intended to go to the 1st Armored IIRC), even then they only showed up in Oct '42 in limited numbers.
Tomo - your question:
you, as the man responsible for tank development, have to create the armored force that would perform admirably within 2 years
Ok, first thing I can't see that the British could do much different before July of '41, as they are desperate to replace tanks lost in France, and have no choice but to continue producing inferior designs rather than stop production.
However in July 1941, the whole situation changes. With Hitler's attack on the Soviets, there is virtually no chance for a German invasion of the UK before the Spring of '42, so the British have some breathing room.
The first battles of the Crusader were in June 1941, and it was quickly evident that the tank had many faults, weak armour, small gun & mechanical problems.
After taking stock of the British/Commonwealth tank production, this is what I would do:
Continue the Valentine & Matilda II production in the UK, but look to upgrade them to a 6 pdr or 75mm as qickly as possible. The bulk of the tanks sent to Russia will be these types.
Drop production of the Covenanter immediately, it's cooling & mechanical problems meant that it couldn't be sent to the desert. (It never was in combat as a tank)
Drop Crusader production in the fall of '41, after there are about 600 - 800 built. Instead, I would convert the Crusader design into an assault gun, with heavier armour and mounting a 25 pdr howitzer. Continue producing these until there is a good cruiser design tested & ready. The British have already seen the StugIII in Greece, so use that as a basic design idea.
Instead of maximum Crusader & Covenanter production, task the industry with design of a good replacement tank, and use excess production capacity to speed up the 6 pdr & 17 pdr, and extra Matilda & Valentine production.
The Canadian Ram prototype is available in June of '41, to replace Crusader production I would order as many Ram tanks as possible sent to the desert ASAP. It began production in Nov of '41, and about 100 per month were built. (total of 1,950 built in 20 months)
Keep in mind, in the beginning of '42 the Canadian Ram is the best Allied (non-Russian) tank and better than any other German or Italian tank.
The 6 pdr gun has better penetration than the PzIII's 50mm/L42, and better than the PzIV's short 75mm, or the M3Lee's 75mm/31, even better than the Sherman 75mm. Although the 6pdr HE shell is smaller than the 75mm, it's possible to equip some of the tanks with 3" howitzers if desired. (British 2 pdr & 6 pdr tank guns were designed to be swapped with the 3" howitzer) The Ram's 87mm frontal armour is far superior than the PzIV's, Sherman's or Lee's 50mm, better than the Crusaders 40mm, and even the Matilda's 70mm. The tank was also fast & reliable.
The Churchill project would continue as planned, except with a proper turret able to handle the 17 pdr or 25 pdr gun.
(a 40 ton tank with a 2 pdr in the turret is just a joke)
So how does this change the desert war? Without a British defeat at Gazala it's unlikely that there will be Shermans until 1943.
The British had about 800 tanks at Gazala, of which only 162 were the semi-effective Grants, the rest were all crap. Valentines were OK, but were slow, and the 1942 model had only a 2 pdr, the Crusader was fast, but had a weak gun, weak armour & was prone to breakdowns.
That's the main reason why they lost at Gazala, at the end they only had a couple hundred tanks left.
At 2nd El Alamein, the British had 1,021 tanks operational, but apart from 285 Shermans & 246 Grants, & 3 Churchills, there were 811 "crap" tanks.(421 crusaders, 167 stuart & 223 Valentine 2 pdrs)
So at Gazala, (assuming about 850 British tanks) I estimate they could (by April '42) have shipped 300 - 350 Ram tanks, + 160 Grants, or about 450 - 500 good tanks. The remaining 350 - 400 tanks would be about 150 of the Crusader assault gun, and 200 - 250 of the less effective Crusader & Valentine tanks.
With a superb anti-armour Ram tank & a good assault gun the British have a good chance to win this battle.
By El Alamein, (assuming about 1,200 tanks as less are lost at Gazala - but no Shermans arrive) the British should have at least 650 Rams, 250 Crusader assault guns, perhaps 200 Grants and only 100 or so of the obsolete Valentines & Crusaders
Last edited by freebird; 03-27-2011 at 01:59 PM.
Good analysis, Freebird.
MM
I think Freebird has it taped. Or as an alternative, design the new engine quickly and churn out the Cromwell. With its speed, armour and a 6 pd gun the Cromwell would be more than sufficient for the job.
Tiger Is appeared in NA in very late '42.
"If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's English, thank a soldier!"
Ultimately, they may not see the Cromwell at all in it's historic form.
As produced in 1943 it was under-gunned with the 75mm gun.
They ended up with a cascade of problems, and almost a dozen tank designs, because they were all rushed. The A23/A24 "Cavilier" development (which ended up with the Cromwell) was hampered by the specification that is use existing Crusader/Covenanter parts to ease production. The Crusader was near the end of its expansion limit, this resulted in a the Cavilier/Centaur/Cromwell being rather smaller & faster, but unable to carry a decently powerful gun.
With the main difference being that Canadian production would provide cruiser tanks from the end of '41 - mid '43 - the British have the time to develop a really solid tank, not the rushed, hand-me-down Cavilier/Centaur family.
By mid '41, the Meteor engine is under development, the first example to be tested in the Crusader was Sept '41.
So the specification in mid '41 would be for a cruiser to follow the Ram tank, ready for production in early '43.
1.) It would use the Meteor engine.
2.) It would have a big enough turret (& turret ring) to support the Vickers-Armstrongs high velocity 75mm L/50 gun
3.) The armour should be at least comparable to the Rams.
4.) Road speed at least 28-30 mph
The tank produced would be much closer to the "Comet" than the "Cromwell", but hopeully without all the bad design choices and distractions (Covenanter, Centaur etc) it can be ready in early - mid '43, rather than late '44
Thanks for the input, fellas
The only objection is that I've specified 'British bits & bolts' in OP.
British bits and bolts?
Scrap the Liberty engine from the get-go. Get Rolls-Royce to give/sell Kestrel tooling to a tank engine factory. That solves the engine problem until 1944 or so. Scrap the Meadows flat twelve as soon as possible along with the Covenanter tank. Go with the Crusader but leave the bow MG turret on the first drawing board sketch. Fix drivers position and access for maintenance. Widen hull as much as possible or build a box that over hangs the track to get a bigger turret ring so you can mount the 6 pdr with a 3 man turret.
That's more like it
What about armament? 6pdr + 25pdr combo, or something else? Is it to late to bother with pre-17pdr 3in gun (ordnance from the AA piece)?
Mmm, you did. however you also specifiedThanks for the input, fellas
The only objection is that I've specified 'British bits & bolts' in OP.You may not know this, but "Lend-Lease" was not only supplied from the US, but from Canada also.
Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
By the time the British have passed the danger of Sealion, (Nov '40) and become aware that the Desert War with Italy (Compass - Dec 1940) will require large number of tanks to be sent to Egypt, it's really too late to have a proper, superior tank developed & shipped to the Desert in any numbers for Oct 1942, even if they could forsee future events at the beginning of '41.Britain's lend-lease arrangements with its dominions and colonies is one of the lesser known parts of World War II history.
President Roosevelt allowed Lend-Lease to purchase supplies from Canada, for shipment to Britain, China and Russia.
Canada gave Britain gifts totaling $3.5 billion during the war; Britain used it to buy Canadian food and war supplies
As for "Learning the Lessons of France", they didn't really know that anything was wrong in British tank development, France demonstrated the value of fast mobile tanks operating en masse vs slow British Infantry tanks. It was assumed that the upcoming Crusader tank would fit the bill. (Crusader arrived in Egypt May 1941) There wasn't really a tank crisis until the defeat at Battleaxe (June '41), and the opening of Barbarossa, which required great numbers of tanks to be sent to the Soviets.
The typical British WWII tank took about 2 years to develop.
Cavalier/Cromwell: Design specifications issued late 1940, design submitted early 1941, production begins Nov 1942.
Churchill: Specification summer 1939, production summer 1941
Comet: Specifications A34 1942, revised Jan 1943, production Sept 1944
The exception was the Covenanter (1,771 made) and the Crusader (5,300 made) which were ordered "Off the drawing board" and took about 18 months from acceptance to production, but the rushed process caused an inferior result.
(Covenanter production begins Autumn 1940, Crusader Mar 1941)
So unless the British are getting future events tips from Nostradamusthey can't anticipate the future tank design requirements until July 1941. At that point I would think that it would be better to modify the Cavalier/Cromwell design to an improved version, even if it would push back the start of production from Nov '42 until mid or even late 1943.
the 25pdr is going to be nothing but headaches as a tank gun. Lots of HE ability but the AP is only better than the 2pdr. Low velocity means short practical range.
The British 3in AA gun wasn't much to write home about either. It is a left over WW I design and is both heavy for it's performance and a bit low powered for it's nominal length.
While still being made in India at a very slow rate production had stopped in England a number of years before WW II.
There are a few problems that I see with that.
First, as mentioned above, I can't see how the British could anticipate the inadequate performance of the Crusader until the summer of '41.
Second, the Crusader is just too small at 18-19 tons to support future development.
Third, to redesign the Kestrel as a tank engine beginning in 1941 would be slower than using the Meteor which is already in the works.
Fourth, even with an improved engine in the Crusader, it's still has the problem of it's weak armour, and the chasis just won't support the weight of an upgunned & uparmoured variant.
By 1941, I firmly believe that the British need to develop a new, superior tank rather than try to shoehorn it into the Crusader hull.
Rolls-Royce Meteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Meteor - it was developed from the Rolls-Royce Merlin aero-engine by W. A. Robotham and his chassis design and development division at Belper, as they were not involved in aero-engine work. With the aid of engineers from Leyland, who were engaged in tank work, he considered RR's two V12s. The Kestrel, while having more power than the existing "Liberty" or Meadows engines, did not provide the desirable 20 bhp per ton required, so the Merlin III was used.
The Crusader really can't support a 17 pdr or 25 pdr turret on it's small hull, it was tried on the Bishop, which is only about a ton lighter than the Crusader.
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