Rifles and Machineguns of WW2

[glennasher]

Sheer momentum of the heavier bullets tends to favor the .45 over the 10mm. I had a very early Delta Elite Colt, and it was put together RIGHT, but even with the heavier 200 grain loads, it doesn't hold up with the .45 really. Using a +P load with 230s in a .45 makes it a better round for hunting, too. You also can't ignore the great diameter of the bullet, size DOES matter, and probably always will.
As far as the Super goes, it's llke the difference between a 5.56 and a 7.62 Nato, it's just no comparison when it comes to ooomph. Texas Rangers always liked the Super because it shoots flat for longer distances, and ranges in Texas are "indeterminate" most of the time, it's simply easier to hit with the Super than the .45 when the yardage is longer. Hits matter, too.A 10mm would split that difference nicely, of course.

My pistols were customized for IPSC shooting, compensated, all the gadgets and gewgaws, etc. and I'd taken pains with them to shoot well. The Super had a Barsto barrel, the 10 had a Barsto, and a Hienie compensated barrel, and the .45 had another brand of good quality barrel, all smithed by guys who knew their business. The 10mm was probably the most accurate of the three, but it was nip and tuck. By far and away, the .45 was more reliable, and more comfortable to shoot.

I never found cleaning a pistol to be a real chore, Ivan, so I never let it bother me. Try some Accurate #7 powder in your 10mm, or some HS-7 with the 200s, you should get close to 1300 with the 200s, scary good accuracy, too. I shot 231 in the .45 mostly, especially at the USPSA/IPSC Nationals, when I had to shoot well. I came in 5th in my class in 1989 (C, Open).

I sure do miss my pistol shooting, but the arthritis took all the fun out of it. I still carry around a Colt Custom Shop 1991A1 Limited model, but I can't do the competition thing any more, my rheumatologist forbids it. I REALLY miss the Lightweight Commanders I was carrying, but they hurt to shoot.

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Glennasher,

Seems like you know your business with handguns.
I believe part of your discussion is contradictory though: You state the .45 auto has greater momentum with 230 grain bullets, but the numbers you quote for the 10 mm clearly show it has greater momentum at 1200-1300 fps even if it were shooting 180 grain bullets.

I tend to load my 10 mm rounds with a 180 grain bullet at 1000 to 1100 fps. My .45 Autos typically get fed with 230 grain truncated cone bullets (Lee Mould) at about 850 fps to duplicate military ball. Most of my .45 Auto loads use W231 but I still haven't settled on a powder for 10 mm yet. Just about everything seems to work pretty well. I don't have any experience at all with a .38 Super.

With the .45 ACP in a M1911 type, I notice that powder residue seems to get everywhere. It is especially noticeable in a stainless gun because black stains are so much more obvious. It isn't that any one place is all that difficult, but there are lots of corners, lug recesses, and angles on the breech face that need cleaning. Generally some time before I finish, I end up with a ripped up paper towel and toothpicks to pick out all the residue in the corners.

- Ivan.

[glennasher]

The .45 is a bit dirty shooting, but most all cast bullet loads are, to some degree. Jacketed bullets are cleaner, of course. 231`isn't the cleanest burning powder for a .45, either, try some Universal Clays for clean shooting, if it really bothers you, it's similar to Unique in loads, but it's a LOT cleaner.

180s are good in the 10mm, but you have to factor in the diameter of the bullets, too, and the .45 has a good bit better cross-section. You can, judiciously, hit nearly 1000fps with a 230, if you've got a well-fitted gun and stiffer springs. I wouldn't use a load like that everyday, of course, but limited use won't hurt anything.

Most of the time, in my 10mm, I shot a 200 gr. SWC (cast) (CP Bullets out of Toledo or nearby) using AA#2, for 950 fps. It duplicated, numbers-wise, the load I used for IPSC shooting my .45s, and it was back when Accurate Powders were substantially less expensive than 231, and easier to find locally. I finally switched the .45 over to AA#2, also, it was a bit cleaner than 231, but VERY similar. Back in those days, data was "where you found it" or "whatever you could come up with on your own", which was interesting, you never could predict what was going to happen. I had some data sheets from Sierra and Hornady to help a little, but no manuals had anything in them until later. I never had good luck with the recommended AA#5, that powder and I didn't get along well, but AA#7 is superlative for warmer loads in 10mm, try it and see.


I had scads of data I'd worked up, in a notebook, but that notebook has gotten away from me somehow. I'd worked some with the .41 Action Express, too, at one time. The notebook had data for everything I'd been ing around with. I think it got lost in a move, somewhere along the line.

[renrich]

Interesting article in latest "American Rifleman" about guns of D day. One of the German defenders at Omaha beach was using a Czech version of the Browning water cooled MG not the Mg42. Another good story was that a Airborne sergeant landed on the steeple of the church at Ste Mere Eglise and was shot in the stomach by a German soldier. The German turned to shoot another paratrooper and the soldier shot in the stomach pulled his 1911 Government Model and shot the German in the back of the head before he died. Sounds like a heck of a shot.

[Soren]

Velocity matters more than size, and this is a well proven fact.

As for the .45 ACP being a man-stopper = pure rubbish. The .45 ACP stops a man no better than a 9mm Parabellum, and that is despite what some smartass cop may claim. That a .45 ACP supposedly does stop a man better than a 9mm is just another one of those ever persisting urban myths out there.

To be even more clear however, safe from some of those freak of nature guns out there, there's pretty much no handgun in the world that could ever be classified as a "man stopper", and if there really was I'd never want to be the one using it.

A handgun is a sidearm, and 90% of the time your last ditch weapon if something goes wrong with your primary. Only in very close quarters, such as inside a small house or room is it your primary weapon.

A pistol will not stop a running man dead in his tracks, be it even a .50 cal Desert Eagle, if it would then you'd be thrown back on your ass every time you fired it.

Newtons third law of motion:
To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

That having been said a pistol round can be just as lethal as a rifle round if you know what to aim for, and one of the obvious places is the head ofcourse, but there are other places as-well, such as directly centermass. If you hit a man centermass with a std. 9mm parabellum round it will go straight through his organs and sever his spinal chord = instant relaxation. And this is something a .45 ACP for example can have issues with because of its lower penetrative capabilities.

But aside from that the .45 ACP does make a bigger hole, and a bigger hole means higher bloodloss, so if hit anywhere other than the head & spine, then a .45 ACP is a deadlier round long term than the 9mm. But that's not really of much importance in the heat of battle where you want your enemy to die as soon as you hit him and not a second after as that could cost you your life. (Also explains why the military went for the 9mm) But in that case you're most of the time also far better off NOT choosing the pistol over your rifle.

If you're looking for a weapon which will stop a man 100% of the time nearly nomatter where you hit him, then you need look no further than your own 12 gauge shotgun and fill it with slugs. Now there's something which will stop a man very quickly.

[vikingBerserker]

Originally Posted by Soren

If you're looking for a weapon which will stop a man 100% of the time nearly nomatter where you hit him, then you need look no further than your own 12 gauge shotgun and fill it with slugs. Now there's something which will stop a man very quickly.

A-fricken men!!!!

[renrich]

An interesting article in the latest "American Rifleman." outlines the development of the Garand rifle and it's competition, the Pederson. At one point, the Garand was to be chambered for the 276 Pederson, an intermediate powered catridge, (a 140 or 150 grain bullet at around 2400 fps) It appears that General MacArthur put the quietus on that so the Garand went back to the 3006 Springfield. If the 276 Pederson had been adopted, the first true assault rifle might have been not far behind and the 223 Remington might have never happened.

[CharlesBronson]

Two rarities in action, japanese Nambu type 11 and type 96, both gas operated in 6,5x51sr arisaka.

YouTube - Nambu tipo 11 y tipo 96 cal 6.5mm.

[Ivan1GFP]

Hi Soren,

If you are talking about changing the momentum of a 180 pound dead weight, then obviously no handgun or shoulder fired rifle or shotgun will do it (12 gauge included). Even a small cannon shell may not transfer enough momentum to the target because the shell would likely pass through the target. I believe what we are discussing is the best handgun for causing enough structural damage, hydrostatic shock, neural disruption, overpressure, embarrassment, or whatever to stop an average person from doing whatever they are doing that requires that you shoot them to begin with.

As such, a Taser firing some little bitty needles with a fair amount of electric charge to be applied doesn't have enough momentum to argue about, but the effect is generally quite reliable. A Laser that burns a two inch hole through a person's chest also doesn't have momentum enough to discuss, but would also work well enough. Same goes for overpressure from a Nuke or Fuel-Air bomb. No momentum. Instant incapacitation. If the victim were running toward you, their momentum would not change, but they would probably fall down and no longer be an issue.

I personally am not dogmatic about a particular caliber or firearm, but I do believe some handguns are considerably more reliable "Man-Stoppers" than others. I don't think there really is a whole lot of difference between a 9 mm and a .45 ACP but I'll leave that to the experts who have the statistics. As far as I'm concerned, the endless discussion about the momentum of the .45 ACP versus the energy of a 9mm or .357 is something to sell magazines to folks who like to read the same thing over and over again.

- Ivan.

[Soren]

We are in complete agreement on this Ivan.

[CharlesBronson]

German soldier capturing russian with no magazine in its submachinegun. Almost funny.

[Ivan1GFP]

Perhaps there is a round in the chamber??? Naaah, SMGs fire from an open bolt. Guess that Ivan doesn't know the gun is empty.

Better yet, perhaps that Ivan is fairly smart and Fritz is stupid. Ivan knows that another Fritz is taking a picture, and probably yet another Fritz has a gun here. Ivan is probably the only one of his bunch left alive.

- Ivan.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Of course it is a staged photo, lots of pictures like this were taken by everyone from all sides. No one is stupid there...

[CharlesBronson]

Some interesting photos of the MG 34 in use by the Wehrmacht:

- As AAA weapon, France 1943

- In Bunker barbette, Norway 1943

- Zwilling AAA emplacements Italy 1943

- Used by the "Freies Indien" in the atlantic wall, 1944.