Rifles and Machineguns of WW2

[fer-de-lance]

Okay, you got me on that one ... I will have to "Parrot" a textbook (actually 2): ...

"Debridement" is a medical term referring to the removal of dead, damaged, or infected tissue to improve the healing potential of the remaining healthy tissue. The word “débridement” is originally French. It was used for the first time during the eighteenth century in the surgical context and meant “wound incision.” For French surgeons, it has retained to this day its original meaning.

Eh, yes, it is "-bride" but pronounced with a short "i" by the purists ... Perhaps to avoid snide allusions to the "Droit de Cuissage" (right of a feudal lord to sleep with the bride of a vassal on her wedding night ... You know, "de-bride" ... Oh, never mind!)

Left untreated, high velocity projectile wounds with much tissue destroyed and bacterial contamination would likely become infected. Gas gangrene can ensue, resulting in ... amputation ... death.

Surgically removing as much dead tissue you can find (and may be some that looks "marginal") and delaying closing of the wound has been shown to be the best way to prevent infection in the pre-antibiotic days.

With improvements in antibiotics etc, adjustments have been made to try and preserve more viable tissue.

However, if you don't have anything else to deal with an infected wound, maggots (fly larvae) have been used. Johns Hopkins pioneered it in the 1930's and now (after a hiatus of many years due in part to people being "grossed out") there is now a "growing" business for supplying disinfected Lucilia sericata larvae as "medicinal maggots" to practitioners for dealing with things like infected diabetic leg ulcers ...

The maggots basically eat the dead and infected tissue and leave healthy tissue unaffected. This biological "debridement" help prevent worsening of the infection. Medicinal maggots have saved many an infected limbs from amputation ... (I will spare you the published references but there are many). When the dead tissue is gone, the maggots starve and die - sad (for the fly), but conventient (for the patient).

There are stories of medics in POW camps lacking medical supplies and surgical facilities using maggots to treat infected high velocity projectile wounds.

There were descriptions of dressings left opened to allow flies to lay eggs in the wounds. When you had no other options (the wound is infected and a known proportion of patients is expected to die of infection anyway), the incremental risk of the fly bringing bacteria to the wound is outweighed by the potential good of the maggots debriding the wound.

It's pretty gruesome but during WWII and the Korean War, lives and limbs in POW camps have been saved this way. It was one of the dirty/clean little secrets that the medics kept to themselves ... (Imagine getting the patient's consent for this procedure!)

[renrich]

I was in "hog heaven" in basic having that war winning Garand and an almost unlimited supply of free ammo on the KD range. I had never fired a big bore rifle but had grown up hunting jack rabbits on a farm in Gonzales County, Texas with my Grandfather"s "target" a 22 bolt action Winchester and a box of 22 shorts (all I could afford) which cost 35 cents in those days. The little rifle had open sights and, maybe a faulty memory, but because of a lot of shooting and learning the proper hold over, I killed a number of rabbits at ranges out to 120 yards while they were sitting and got to be fair at hitting them on the run. Anyway, the Garand was a lot of fun for me and my particular issued rifle seemed to be quite accurate and I never had a stoppage, maybe because I gave it lavish care. I am prejudiced toward the Garand but later when using the M14 I just never liked that big box magazine sticking out. I also qualified with the M1 carbine but would not want to carry one in combat. Also qualified with the 1911 Government Model and have one of those in my house as well as many other pieces. I was never in combat(thank the Lord) but have killed many a head of big game since those days on the KD range and have done a lot of hand loading. Any comparison of the wound ballistics of the German, British and US service calibers as far as the issue muskets is concerned would show there is not much advantage for any of them over the others. The 3006 round which is the fodder the Garand used might be a little light for some of the dangerous species but properly loaded and with proper placement of the bullet it will kill any game animal in the world and is way more than adequate for the human animal. As far as reaching out the Garand and it's bullet will out perform almost any rifleman using it with the issue peep sight.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by renrich

Any comparison of the wound ballistics of the German, British and US service calibers as far as the issue muskets is concerned would show there is not much advantage for any of them over the others.

From one fellow handloader to another, may I say thankyou for a respite of common sense. Bravo.

[Matt308]

Originally Posted by fer-de-lance

Okay, you got me on that one ... I will have to "Parrot" a textbook (actually 2): ...

"Debridement" is a medical term referring to the removal of dead, damaged, or infected tissue to improve the healing potential of the remaining healthy tissue. The word “débridement” is originally French. It was used for the first time during the eighteenth century in the surgical context and meant “wound incision.” For French surgeons, it has retained to this day its original meaning.

Eh, yes, it is "-bride" but pronounced with a short "i" by the purists ... Perhaps to avoid snide allusions to the "Droit de Cuissage" (right of a feudal lord to sleep with the bride of a vassal on her wedding night ... You know, "de-bride" ... Oh, never mind!)

Left untreated, high velocity projectile wounds with much tissue destroyed and bacterial contamination would likely become infected. Gas gangrene can ensue, resulting in ... amputation ... death.

Surgically removing as much dead tissue you can find (and may be some that looks "marginal") and delaying closing of the wound has been shown to be the best way to prevent infection in the pre-antibiotic days.

With improvements in antibiotics etc, adjustments have been made to try and preserve more viable tissue.

However, if you don't have anything else to deal with an infected wound, maggots (fly larvae) have been used. Johns Hopkins pioneered it in the 1930's and now (after a hiatus of many years due in part to people being "grossed out") there is now a "growing" business for supplying disinfected Lucilia sericata larvae as "medicinal maggots" to practitioners for dealing with things like infected diabetic leg ulcers ...

The maggots basically eat the dead and infected tissue and leave healthy tissue unaffected. This biological "debridement" help prevent worsening of the infection. Medicinal maggots have saved many an infected limbs from amputation ... (I will spare you the published references but there are many). When the dead tissue is gone, the maggots starve and die - sad (for the fly), but conventient (for the patient).

There are stories of medics in POW camps lacking medical supplies and surgical facilities using maggots to treat infected high velocity projectile wounds.

There were descriptions of dressings left opened to allow flies to lay eggs in the wounds. When you had no other options (the wound is infected and a known proportion of patients is expected to die of infection anyway), the incremental risk of the fly bringing bacteria to the wound is outweighed by the potential good of the maggots debriding the wound.

It's pretty gruesome but during WWII and the Korean War, lives and limbs in POW camps have been saved this way. It was one of the dirty/clean little secrets that the medics kept to themselves ... (Imagine getting the patient's consent for this procedure!)

Excellent.

[renrich]

Thanks Matt. Handloading is the best way I know of to really learn about the effectiveness of all the different loads and calibers out there.

[Snautzer]

Maybe this paper is of intrest to you all

[bf109 Emil]

you gota like the .303 caliber De Wilde ammo used in Spits and hurricanes...makes a nice flash when it hits it's target, and doesn't give away bouncing an enemy does like silly tracer rounds for the poor aiming lads...
Dad brought tons of this back, and on the farm i think us kids used to shot nearly every tree and old car in the fields just to see this...

bf109 Emil

[Soren]

Fer-de-lance,

The 7.92x57mm IS does have more stopping power than the 30.06 and may be used for larger game as-well. The rifles chambered in 7.92x57mm IS were used as elefant guns by both British & Americans hunters in Africa because it was the only regular round capable of taking down an elefant, the .30 cal and .303 proving inadequate. Now this is also much in part because of the much heavier and efficient projectiles used in the 7.92x57mm round at that time offering a much better penetrative performance.

Now against a human being within 500m there's no difference, all three rounds are just as lethal nomatter where you hit, the cavitation effect being enormous.