Sweden. Allied or not - Aircraft of World War II

falcon from sweden · 06-13-2007, 05:28 AM

During ww2 sweden shiped iron ore to german.
For that, the germans gave gold and money to sweden.
Germany used the swedish railway to move soldiers to Finland.

Now i want to know what you think.

Was Sweden an allied to Germany or was they just nice?

FLYBOYJ · 06-13-2007, 08:53 AM

Played both hands....

Lucky13 · 06-13-2007, 08:58 AM

I agree with FLYBOJ.... We definitely played with both hands. I think that there was even plans made up for an invation of Sweden wasn't there? I've wondered sometimes what would have happened if we had been invaded? I know that we didn't have the most modern air force, navy or army. But what about the quality of the foot soldier, the officer corps, weapons, tactics and, would the winter been as much of obstruction here as in Russia? Our winters can be just as bad as the ones on the eastern front. I think Sweden is the third largest country in Europe as well, so it's plenty of land and mountains, not to mention very deep and dark forrests to fight through....

Lucky13 · 06-13-2007, 09:22 AM

Here's some more to read.... Swedish Army in WWII

timshatz · 06-13-2007, 10:11 AM

Swedes did the only thing they could. Yeah, they played to both sides but being a small country (in population) in the middle of a World War is not a place to pick a side.

If Sweden goes against Germany- she gets invaded (German troops on both sides).
If Sweden goes against the Allies- She gets bombed flat and maybe (probably) invaded by the Soviets.

No good options but the one she took. Pay the devil and hope for the best.

Glider · 06-13-2007, 10:31 AM

Agree with the Majority, they were neutral and did what they had to do.

No complaints from this end

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-13-2007, 10:34 AM

I dont think Sweden did anything wrong. As Tim said they did what they had to do. Also as a non combatant they are doint what countries do in trade.

Lucky13 · 06-13-2007, 12:14 PM

Personally I think that if it had come to take sides, Sweden had sided with the Allies. The question is though, when would it happen? They would have been forced to do that rather early on right? Otherwise we'd been invaded at almost the same time as Norway and Denmark. I have to admit that MUST have been like walking on a VERY thin line......

"Sweden's and Finland's trade was totally controlled by the Kriegsmarine. As a consequence, Germany put pressure on neutral Sweden to permit transit of military goods and soldiers on leave. On June 18, 1940, an agreement was reached. Soldiers were to travel unarmed and not be part of unit movements. A total of 2.14 million German soldiers, and more than 100,000 German military railway carriages, crossed Sweden until this traffic was officially suspended on August 20, 1943"

"Even though Sweden never took actual part in the hostilities, the Swedish Air Force saw combat in terms of defending neutrality and guiding straying Allied and German aircraft to safe landing grounds. In this role, the RSAF proved especially useful in the southern parts of Sweden during the last years of the war, when Allied bombing routes were drawn increasingly closer to Swedish air territory. It is worth noting that no less than a total of 342 foreign military aircraft landed in Sweden during WWII, of which about 200 were American or British aircraft with varying degrees of battle-damage. To many Allied air crew in crippled Lancasters, B-17s and B-24s, Sweden provided a “haven of refuge” instead of ditching at sea or in German-occupied countries, although the air crews were detained in Sweden. There were special internment camps built and/or organised (Allied and German soldiers were kept in separate places), and although run by Swedish military personnel, the conditions were in many cases more like a spa than those of an imprisonment camp."

The Swedish air force 1926-

timshatz · 06-13-2007, 02:44 PM

Have heard about internment in both Sweden and Switzerland. From what I had heard, it wasn't a terrible deal. If you really wanted to make a run for it, you could.

Had to be more than one crew that thought about it after Black Thursday and other particularly bad missions.

Lucky13 · 06-13-2007, 03:14 PM

I don't think that Germany would have much to gain if they had chosen to invade us. If Germany had invaded us, it would have caused some serious issues in politics and security. There's also quite a few Swedes or Swedish-Finns living in Finland (today about 290 000 I think), it's doubtful that a hostile occupation of Sweden, would have led them to looked at it on the bright side. It would have also drawn much needed troops from the eastern front and jeopardizing supply their lines even more. Further, it isn't a given that even with a "small and antiquated" military, that Sweden would not have given Germany, or any allied country foolish enough to invade, a real pounding, much like the Finns gave the Russians in the Winter War.
Not forgetting that hunting is a second nature to many Swedes especially when it comes to the älgjakten, which has a roughly 100 year old history with thousands taking part. They wouldn't have a clue about how many they would meet with more than just the one hunting rifle with telescope, able to track and camouflage....

Maybe I'm just a tad over patriotic here, but who knows.

Marcel · 06-13-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falcon from sweden

During ww2 sweden shiped iron ore to german.
For that, the germans gave gold and money to sweden.
Germany used the swedish railway to move soldiers to Finland.

Now i want to know what you think.

Was Sweden an allied to Germany or was they just nice?

Hmmm, quite some dutch men (and probably from other occupied coutries as well) went through Sweden to the UK to fight. Not what I would call "allied to the germans"

Serpentera · 09-20-2007, 06:26 AM

was the trade not from before the war?
they simply continued the trade durning the war.

Aussie1001 · 09-20-2007, 06:37 AM

i believe that germany would not waste it's time invading Sweeden. The germans were interested in raw materials, as well as the fact that it would have draind much needed troops from other campaigns they were fighting at the time. I think also that the terrain of the country was against them, the
germans would have had hell trying to get them up at the mountains....

BTW i have heard that sweeden become neutral over 500 years when one of their kings army got flattened, is this true if so embellish please if you could, if not please correct me....

Matt308 · 09-20-2007, 11:48 AM

Seems to me that the question can be broken into one of real world politics versus moral decision. In other words...

Was the decision to remain neutral a sound political decision in the middle of WWII?, and;

Was it morally right for Sweden to remain neutral in light of the differing ideologies espoused by the Axis and Allied gov'ts.

rogthedodge · 09-20-2007, 09:45 PM

I've read somewhere about RAF mosquitos which were painted in BOAC (civilian livery) and used to make daily runs to sweden to pick up small / high value items (I think machine tools were mentioned) and diplomatic mail.

One at least one occasion high-value VIP's were flown crammed in the ex-bomb bay.

Luftforsvaret SIG

---------------------------------------------------------------

IIRC Switzerland (neutral) downed quite a few USAF bombers after the USAF bombed their territory on a number of occasions (errors)

06-13-2007, 05:28 AM	#1
falcon from sweden Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21	Sweden. Allied or not During ww2 sweden shiped iron ore to german. For that, the germans gave gold and money to sweden. Germany used the swedish railway to move soldiers to Finland. Now i want to know what you think. Was Sweden an allied to Germany or was they just nice?

06-13-2007, 08:53 AM	#2
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,050	Played both hands.... __________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"

06-13-2007, 08:58 AM	#3
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,128	I agree with FLYBOJ.... We definitely played with both hands. I think that there was even plans made up for an invation of Sweden wasn't there? I've wondered sometimes what would have happened if we had been invaded? I know that we didn't have the most modern air force, navy or army. But what about the quality of the foot soldier, the officer corps, weapons, tactics and, would the winter been as much of obstruction here as in Russia? Our winters can be just as bad as the ones on the eastern front. I think Sweden is the third largest country in Europe as well, so it's plenty of land and mountains, not to mention very deep and dark forrests to fight through.... __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" Last edited by Lucky13; 06-13-2007 at 09:06 AM.

06-13-2007, 09:22 AM	#4
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,128	Here's some more to read.... Swedish Army in WWII __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

06-13-2007, 10:34 AM	#7
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 33,152	I dont think Sweden did anything wrong. As Tim said they did what they had to do. Also as a non combatant they are doint what countries do in trade. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"[/I]

06-13-2007, 10:11 AM	#5
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Swedes did the only thing they could. Yeah, they played to both sides but being a small country (in population) in the middle of a World War is not a place to pick a side. If Sweden goes against Germany- she gets invaded (German troops on both sides). If Sweden goes against the Allies- She gets bombed flat and maybe (probably) invaded by the Soviets. No good options but the one she took. Pay the devil and hope for the best.

06-13-2007, 10:31 AM	#6
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,649	Agree with the Majority, they were neutral and did what they had to do. No complaints from this end

06-13-2007, 12:14 PM	#8
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,128	Personally I think that if it had come to take sides, Sweden had sided with the Allies. The question is though, when would it happen? They would have been forced to do that rather early on right? Otherwise we'd been invaded at almost the same time as Norway and Denmark. I have to admit that MUST have been like walking on a VERY thin line...... "Sweden's and Finland's trade was totally controlled by the Kriegsmarine. As a consequence, Germany put pressure on neutral Sweden to permit transit of military goods and soldiers on leave. On June 18, 1940, an agreement was reached. Soldiers were to travel unarmed and not be part of unit movements. A total of 2.14 million German soldiers, and more than 100,000 German military railway carriages, crossed Sweden until this traffic was officially suspended on August 20, 1943" "Even though Sweden never took actual part in the hostilities, the Swedish Air Force saw combat in terms of defending neutrality and guiding straying Allied and German aircraft to safe landing grounds. In this role, the RSAF proved especially useful in the southern parts of Sweden during the last years of the war, when Allied bombing routes were drawn increasingly closer to Swedish air territory. It is worth noting that no less than a total of 342 foreign military aircraft landed in Sweden during WWII, of which about 200 were American or British aircraft with varying degrees of battle-damage. To many Allied air crew in crippled Lancasters, B-17s and B-24s, Sweden provided a “haven of refuge” instead of ditching at sea or in German-occupied countries, although the air crews were detained in Sweden. There were special internment camps built and/or organised (Allied and German soldiers were kept in separate places), and although run by Swedish military personnel, the conditions were in many cases more like a spa than those of an imprisonment camp." The Swedish air force 1926- __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!" Last edited by Lucky13; 06-13-2007 at 01:05 PM.

06-13-2007, 02:44 PM	#9
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Have heard about internment in both Sweden and Switzerland. From what I had heard, it wasn't a terrible deal. If you really wanted to make a run for it, you could. Had to be more than one crew that thought about it after Black Thursday and other particularly bad missions.

06-13-2007, 03:14 PM	#10
Lucky13 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A Swede living in Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 15,128	I don't think that Germany would have much to gain if they had chosen to invade us. If Germany had invaded us, it would have caused some serious issues in politics and security. There's also quite a few Swedes or Swedish-Finns living in Finland (today about 290 000 I think), it's doubtful that a hostile occupation of Sweden, would have led them to looked at it on the bright side. It would have also drawn much needed troops from the eastern front and jeopardizing supply their lines even more. Further, it isn't a given that even with a "small and antiquated" military, that Sweden would not have given Germany, or any allied country foolish enough to invade, a real pounding, much like the Finns gave the Russians in the Winter War. Not forgetting that hunting is a second nature to many Swedes especially when it comes to the älgjakten, which has a roughly 100 year old history with thousands taking part. They wouldn't have a clue about how many they would meet with more than just the one hunting rifle with telescope, able to track and camouflage.... Maybe I'm just a tad over patriotic here, but who knows. __________________ JAN "Felicis Tredecim" "I´m going back to the front to relax" "THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT" "Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!" "When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"

09-20-2007, 06:26 AM	#12
Serpentera Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1	was the trade not from before the war? they simply continued the trade durning the war.

09-20-2007, 06:37 AM	#13
Aussie1001 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Queensland- Australia Posts: 891	i believe that germany would not waste it's time invading Sweeden. The germans were interested in raw materials, as well as the fact that it would have draind much needed troops from other campaigns they were fighting at the time. I think also that the terrain of the country was against them, the germans would have had hell trying to get them up at the mountains.... BTW i have heard that sweeden become neutral over 500 years when one of their kings army got flattened, is this true if so embellish please if you could, if not please correct me.... __________________ 98% Of teens surround their minds with rap. If you're part of the 2% that stayed with rock, put this on your signature I am also one of the 2% who does not own a myspace account.... DEFY THE SYSTEM

09-20-2007, 11:48 AM	#14
Matt308 aka Dickcheese Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Washington State Posts: 13,382	Seems to me that the question can be broken into one of real world politics versus moral decision. In other words... Was the decision to remain neutral a sound political decision in the middle of WWII?, and; Was it morally right for Sweden to remain neutral in light of the differing ideologies espoused by the Axis and Allied gov'ts. __________________ "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the [U.S.] Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan Master of Duplicate Posts

09-20-2007, 09:45 PM	#15
rogthedodge Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 173	I've read somewhere about RAF mosquitos which were painted in BOAC (civilian livery) and used to make daily runs to sweden to pick up small / high value items (I think machine tools were mentioned) and diplomatic mail. One at least one occasion high-value VIP's were flown crammed in the ex-bomb bay. Luftforsvaret SIG --------------------------------------------------------------- IIRC Switzerland (neutral) downed quite a few USAF bombers after the USAF bombed their territory on a number of occasions (errors)

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