Tank vs Tank

[schwarzpanzer]

My basic point was that the Konigstigers armour had no Molybdenum or Manganese content (maybe even no Nickel) so a 122mm round would make a 'scab' fly through the KT (like a HESH round) unless it hit it in the turret which would likely rip it clean off.

That is without it penetrating.

Any other vs ideas?

[plan_D]

Likely? But didn't. Read combats against the King Tiger, they all destroy it from underneath, side or rear.

[Dac]

Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer

My basic point was that the Konigstigers armour had no Molybdenum or Manganese content (maybe even no Nickel) so a 122mm round would make a 'scab' fly through the KT (like a HESH round) unless it hit it in the turret which would likely rip it clean off.

That is without it penetrating.

Any other vs ideas?

The sloped armor on the King Tiger deflected many rounds. A full-on hit from a 122mm round would have been devastating, but this was rarely the case.

[schwarzpanzer]

Dac's point is correct; 'shatter gap' and/or 'skate angle' is going to affect the results against the KT's glacis plate.

Shot down with my own weapon - thanks Dacs!

Then again this isn't guaranteed... (can't remember the probability)

However against the TigerI, this would not be the case:

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_3.html

(IS2 vs Panther and Tiger 1 & 2)

http://www.battlefield.ru/su122.html

(Extremely short-barreled 122mm destroying a TigerI- from a German report!)

BTW: The D25T on the IS2/M was far, far better than this gun that destroyed a Tiger, admitted by Major Gomille, commander of III. (Tiger) Abteilung/Panzer Regiment.

[schwarzpanzer]

Soviet projectiles:

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_2.html#normaliz

Note; 'Normalisation' - this seems similar to the APCBC principle of Western rounds.

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html

- Explains the effects of a 122mm HE round destroying a Panthers frontal armour (the AP bounced off!)

Whilst the 122mm AP destroyed a Tigers front at 1200m.

The lesson to remember is; don't judge Soviet designs by Western standards.

- That means you PlanD!



However, it mentions the IS2 armour quality issue.

To achieve good protection vs the '88' they could either increase armour; quality, thickness or slope - so they did all of them!

It states that the thickness was not changed, but I'm sure it was to 160mm (10mm over the max necessary!)

Also it says IS2M didn't exist WW2, but it's popular nomenclature anyway, so I'll always say IS2M!

It says that the 88mm KwK36 was unable to penetrate point-blank @ 30 degrees, thus making the Pak43 also unable at combat ranges (it doesn't say the latter though)

Again, as I have stated previously, the turret and (to a lesser degree) lower hull could be weak areas, so if the Tiger's gunner was on his mark...

I'd no idea the turret thickness was so little though!

[Soren]

I don't know about this Battlefield.ru site, seems highly biased to me.

Anyways...

Fact is there are absolutely no records of the Tiger Ausf.B's frontal armor ever being penetrated, and the 122mm D25-T gun wasnt even close to being capable of penetrating the front glacis on the Tiger Ausf.B. (Btw only nickel alloy was 'scarce' in the Tiger Ausf.B's armor)

As to the Tiger Mk.1 vs the JS-2, well I'd bet my money on the Tiger for sure. Tiger-I crews have reported JS-2 kills at distances of over 2km "Frontal engagements". The excellent sighting system in the Tiger is what allowed this of-cause.

("Reports state that in July of 1944, commander of 3rd company of schwere Panzer Abteilung 506, Captain Wakker, destroyed Soviet T-34 at the range of 3900 meters.")

The JS-2 on the other hand had a really poor sighting system, so the fact that it carried a really powerful gun didnt help it much, as it was unlikely even hitting a Tiger at more than 1000m away. But even at a distance of 1000m, it would be extremely difficult for the JS-2 to actually score a hit.

Infact the Tiger-I was a serious threat to the JS-2 even at a distance of 2km. The 88mm Kwk36 would afterall punch through 116mm of vertical armor at a distance of 2000m with its standard round, and 91mm at 30 degree's from vertical - U.S. test results.


Against the Tiger Ausf.B (Tiger II), the JS-2 only stands a chance if its a very close engagement where flanking maneuvers can be utilized to expose the Tiger's softer sides and rear. A long-range frontal attack against a Tiger Ausf.B would have been pure suicide, as the Tiger Ausf.B was designed and built exactly for this role, carrying the best AT gun of the war.

Originally Posted by Schwarzpanzer

It says that the 88mm KwK36 was unable to penetrate point-blank @ 30 degrees, thus making the Pak43 also unable at combat ranges (it doesn't say the latter though)

Correction, this was by Russian measuring methods, and thus equals 60 degree's from vertical by western measures.

Infact the Pak43 was capable of cleanly penetrating the JS-2's front glacis at more than 1500m away, while being capable of penetrating the front turret at distances exceeding 4.5km.
("It is reported that in early March of 1945, Lieutenant Beckmann from sPzJagAbt 88 destroyed Soviet IS-2 at the range of 4600 meters near Marzdorf.")

Nashorn crews also reported that they were able to knock out Soviet T-34 tanks at distances as great as 4000 meters, aswell as numerous kills of KV and IS-2 tanks as well as SU-152, ISU-122 and ISU-152 assault guns.

[schwarzpanzer]

I'd think it was biased, but it isn't.

For eg. it says the early JS2 '44 could be penetrated by the 76.2mm ZiS-3!

and that the ZiS-3 could only penetrate a TigerI's side armour @ <200m!!

Fact is there are absolutely no records of the Tiger Ausf.B's frontal armor ever being penetrated

A KingTigers turret front was penetrated by a 100mm and right through the gunsight too by the looks of things - ouch!

Also from what PlanD said, maybe the hull front too?
(which was also vulnerable)

Add to that the fact that the Porscheturm KT (1st 50) had a vulnerable shot-trap, like the Panther did 'till the late AusfG.

the 122mm D25-T gun wasnt even close to being capable of penetrating the front glacis on the Tiger Ausf.B.

At point-blank, the 122mm could break 205mm of armour by sheer penetration.

Or rip the welds apart with HE!

To counter that:

Dac's point is correct; 'shatter gap' and/or 'skate angle' is going to affect the results against the KT's glacis plate.

However, from range, even a ricochet could be lethal; that big shell was capable of ripping Panther's turrets right off the hull!

Also the bolts holding the radios to the turett walls would go ping-ponging around the turret, mechanical failure would also be likely.

I think crews have been killed by ammo and radios falling on them when this happens?

Also penetration doesn't really matter too much!
HESH rounds don't work by penetrating armour.
(IIRC HESH were available for the Soviet WW2 Naval 100mm?)

(Btw only nickel alloy was 'scarce' in the Tiger Ausf.B's armor)

I know Molybdenum was scarce, I thought nickel wasn't!

PlanD said Manganeze wasn't available, I believe him. (he is from Sheffield after all! )

Infact the Tiger-I was a serious threat to the JS-2 even at a distance of 2km. The 88mm Kwk36 would afterall punch through 116mm of vertical armor at a distance of 2000m with its standard round, and 91mm at 30 degree's from vertical - U.S. test results

Well even the earliest IS2's had >120mm hull armour, however as planD said it was very poor quality, also the crews didn't really know how to use the IS2.

The turret was 90mm @ round though, so at 2km, yes it was vulnerable.

- Though some may have been 100mm @ round.

The IS2M was a lot harder to kill though.

Against the Tiger Ausf.B (Tiger II), the JS-2 only stands a chance if its a very close engagement where flanking maneuvers can be utilized to expose the Tiger's softer sides and rear.

Point blank they are about equal frontally, unless the K-Tiger is a 'quality' version.

The 122mm could penetrate the KT's side/rear armour from quite a distance, say >1,500 km?

A long-range frontal attack against a Tiger Ausf.B would have been pure suicide, as the Tiger Ausf.B was designed and built exactly for this role

Yes, the KT should come out on top there (if it was decent quality).

It was rarely used this way though.

carrying the best AT gun of the war.

The best gun of the war? - That is debatable, good contender though.

Correction, this was by Russian measuring methods, and thus equals 60 degree's from vertical by western measures.

Lots of Western measures get confused on this issue too!

60 degrees would make sense as it is the ballistic 'skate angle'.

Infact the Pak43 was capable of cleanly penetrating the JS-2's front glacis at more than 1500m away

Possible with APCR or APCBC.

- But not plain AP.

while being capable of penetrating the front turret at distances exceeding 4.5km.

I doubt that, but I will check.

90mm @ round is the same as a T34/85 (daft!) if a T34/85 was invulnerable at ranges >4km, then so was an IS2(M)!

I think the KV/85 and IS1/85 had 100mm of turret armour?

Thats a stupid step back, then again early T34's had 60mm of frontal armour, later to be 45mm!

[Soren]

A KingTigers turret front was penetrated by a 100mm and right through the gunsight too by the looks of things - ouch!

Those are pictures of a stripped down KT being used as a test target, and the armor has been weakened considerably already by multiple hits all over.(Over 100 hits maybe) And as you pointed out yourself, the 100mm projectile hit the gun-sight, a VERY weak spot in the KT's front turret, thus it met very little resistance in the way of armor. Thus that test bares no resemblance what so ever to what the KT could really resist.

Also from what PlanD said, maybe the hull front too?
(which was also vulnerable)

The KT's front glacis was not at all vulnerable to any 122mm D25-T round, at 'any' range. But after being hit possibly over a hundred times by other AT guns, weakening it significantly, it was bound to be penetrated at some point.

Add to that the fact that the Porscheturm KT (1st 50) had a vulnerable shot-trap, like the Panther did 'till the late AusfG.

Very few KT's with Porsche turm's were manufactured.

At point-blank, the 122mm could break 205mm of armour by sheer penetration.

According to Russian tests, against Russian test plates. That penetration figure would be quite abit lower against German armor.

However, from range, even a ricochet could be lethal; that big shell was capable of ripping Panther's turrets right off the hull!

Russian fairytale. The 122mm D25-T would never, under any circumstances, penetrate the KT's front glacis, period.

And do you know why ? Cause its impossible.

Also the bolts holding the radios to the turret walls would go ping-ponging around the turret, mechanical failure would also be likely.

Your overestimating the power of the D25-T quite significantly.

A 122mm D25-T round hitting the KT's front glacis could most likely barely even be felt by the crew, as the noise of the engine and the vibration of the tank running over the terrain almost totally negated the vibration and sound of a round hitting it.

I think crews have been killed by ammo and radios falling on them when this happens?

I've certainly never heard of such, as rounds and radio equipment is very safely secured inside the tank, and won't fall down just like that.

Also penetration doesn't really matter too much!
HESH rounds don't work by penetrating armour.
(IIRC HESH were available for the Soviet WW2 Naval 100mm?)

The IS-2 didn't have HESH rounds.

The IS2M was a lot harder to kill though.

The IS-2"M" had 100mm of frontal turret armor, and 90mm on the side.

Point blank they are about equal frontally, unless the K-Tiger is a 'quality' version.

No, the KT is very much superior in every way under such an engagement.

The 122mm could penetrate the KT's side/rear armour from quite a distance, say >1,500 km?

Yes, even at 3,000m the D25-T could puncture the KT from the side, problem is the D25-T couldn't anything beyond 1200m.

Yes, the KT should come out on top there (if it was decent quality).

There is no question whether or not the KT comes out on top, it has all the advantages. The KT's gun for one is much superior in both penetration and accuracy, there's simply no way a IS-2 will win a long range engagement with a Tiger Ausf.B. (The IS-2 can't hit anything beyond 1200m anyway)

It was rarely used this way though.

No, it was used quite often this way actually, just sitting and waiting for anything to come within sight of its Kwk43 gun.

The best gun of the war? - That is debatable, good contender though.

The best "AT" gun put on a tank, it certainly was.

Possible with APCR or APCBC.

- But not plain AP.

The KT only carried APCBC.

I doubt that, but I will check.

90mm @ round is the same as a T34/85 (daft!) if a T34/85 was invulnerable at ranges >4km, then so was an IS2(M)!

I think the KV/85 and IS1/85 had 100mm of turret armour?

Thats a stupid step back, then again early T34's had 60mm of frontal armour, later to be 45mm!

Schwartzpanzer, the Pak/Kwk43 would penetrate 124mm of vertical armor at a distance of 4.5km, and the IS-2M only has 100mm of vertical frontal turret armor.

[schwarzpanzer]

You're thinking about the Kubinka range KT?

- Not that one.

The KT's front glacis was not at all vulnerable to any 122mm D25-T round, at 'any' range.

Not glacis, I said hull (underneath the glacis).

Anyway, at point blank it's just gonna cave in.

Very few KT's with Porsche turm's were manufactured.

-

(1st 50)

According to Russian tests, against Russian test plates.

No they were UK tests! <100m though.

Russian fairytale. The 122mm D25-T would never, under any circumstances, penetrate the KT's front glacis, period.

It's possible, but unecessary, the 122mm didn't work by penetration.

A 122mm D25-T round hitting the KT's front glacis could most likely barely even be felt by the crew

I think not, armour would be chipped away and the steering clutches would likely be shot at the very least.

The whole tank would likely even be forced backwards.

The IS-2 didn't have HESH rounds.

Similar principle, I actually think a few did (or was that SU-100? )

No, the KT is very much superior in every way under such an engagement.

If the IS2's 1st round missed and it didn't get out it was dead!

Also if the KT got the 1st shot in...

problem is the D25-T couldn't anything beyond 1200m

The KT was a mahoosive target though...

No, it was used quite often this way actually, just sitting and waiting for anything to come within sight of its Kwk43 gun.

Like it was in the Bulge/Ardennes?

If it was used like that it was near unstoppable, though hard to hide something that big.

The best "AT" gun put on a tank, it certainly was.

The 90mm and 17 pounder were roughly equal, or better depending on your viewpoint.

The KT only carried APCBC.

No a variety was carried, the list is quite big; AP, APCBC, HE, APCR, 7.92mm etc, etc

the IS-2M only has 100mm of vertical frontal turret armor.

90mm of rounded armour actually.

[Parmigiano]

Found this link for those who have time and passion to read a 150 pages thesis about the strategic use of the Panzer VI, plus kill ratios, technical data etc.

http://cgsc.cdm.oclc.org/coll2/image/305.pdf

good reading...

[Soren]

You're thinking about the Kubinka range KT?

- Not that one.

There isnt any other Schwartzpanzer...

Infact there are no combat records what so ever of the front of a Tiger Ausf.B ever being penetrated, and thats a darn fact Schwartzpanzer.

Not glacis, I said hull (underneath the glacis).

It wouldnt penetrate that neither Scwartzpanzer.

Anyway, at point blank it's just gonna cave in.

No, its either going to bounce off, or shatter. ("Alot" of Russian AT projectiles shattered, mainly because of their poor quality)

(1st 50)

Would you call that alot ?

No they were UK tests! <100m though.

Ok, conducted where exactly ? (Please note before you answer, that I know where all UK tests with captured guns were carried out)

It's possible, but unecessary, the 122mm didn't work by penetration.

Schwartzpanzer, the 122mm D25-T wouldnt cause spalling on the glacis either, if thats what your implying.

I think not, armour would be chipped away

Chipped away ?! Schwartzpanzer the round would simply bounce off, leaving only a deep dent in the armor.

and the steering clutches would likely be shot at the very least.

Your kidding me right ?!

The whole tank would likely even be forced backwards.

I hope you were joking when you said that...

NO schwartzpanzer, the tank would NOT move backwards, not even an inch.

Similar principle, I actually think a few did (or was that SU-100? )

No, they didnt have it.

If the IS2's 1st round missed and it didn't get out it was dead!

Also if the KT got the 1st shot in...

Even if the IS-2, under some miracle, got the first shot in, it was still doomed to lose in such an engagement. The 122mm D25-T was simply so inefficient at long ranges, that it posed no threat what so ever to a Tiger Ausf.B in such a scenario.

The KT was a mahoosive target though...

At long ranges such as 1000m or more, that has almost zero importance.

The 90mm and 17 pounder were roughly equal, or better depending on your viewpoint.

They weren't even close Schwartzpanzer....

No a variety was carried, the list is quite big; AP, APCBC, HE, APCR,

No the list isnt big at all Schwartzpanzer. The only AP ammunition carried for the Kwk43 in the Tiger Ausf.B, was the APCBC. The HE ammunition was for infantry targets.

APCR wasnt carried as "There was none!". German tungsten supplies had ran out already in late 43, so the remaining tungsten was issued only to the small AT guns ammunition, as these were worthless without it.

7.92mm etc, etc

Now why the heck would you mention the 7.92mm ammunition while we're talking ammunition for the main gun ?

90mm of rounded armour actually.

No, 100mm of armor actually, the sides of the turret were 90mm thick And rounded armor is also vertical.

[schwarzpanzer]

Infact there are no combat records what so ever of the front of a Tiger Ausf.B ever being penetrated, and thats a darn fact Schwartzpanzer.

I'll get it sometime.

It wouldnt penetrate that neither Scwartzpanzer.

The hull was not as heavily armoured, though the big 122mm shell would be a disadvantage there.

No, its either going to bounce off, or shatter.

Those are possibilities, true.

Would you call that alot ?

Well, no, but KT production wasn't that large...

They were IIRC used on the Western front only?

Ok, conducted where exactly ?

Bovington IIRC.

Schwartzpanzer, the 122mm D25-T wouldnt cause spalling on the glacis either, if thats what your implying.

That is indeed what I'm implying!

Chipped away ?! Schwartzpanzer the round would simply bounce off, leaving only a deep dent in the armor.

Even the short 122mm of the S122 (which was far inferior to the D25T) did that to a TigerI (whose armour was far better quality than the KT's).

Even if the IS-2, under some miracle, got the first shot in, it was still doomed to lose in such an engagement. The 122mm D25-T was simply so inefficient at long ranges, that it posed no threat what so ever to a Tiger Ausf.B in such a scenario.

At less than 600m? The 1st shot would likely win it.

At long ranges such as 1000m or more, that has almost zero importance.

It doesn't. If t did, every little helps... At range, less 'lead' is needed. The KT was also slow...

They weren't even close Schwartzpanzer....

The were equal or better IMHO. Penetration, RoF, weight etc.
What do you judge guns on??

The only AP ammunition carried for the Kwk43 in the Tiger Ausf.B, was the APCBC.

No, APCR and APFDS were rare and very rare respectively. BTW IIRC I don't think HVAP (APCR) was available for the 122mm?

Also retro ammo may be used, '88' KwK36 etc.

The HE ammunition was for infantry targets.

I know that! but HE can destroy a light tank or say a Cromwells flank...

APCR wasnt carried as "There was none!". German tungsten supplies had ran out already in late 43, so the remaining tungsten was issued only to the small AT guns ammunition, as these were worthless without it.

There was some. Actually, in '44 all supplies went to machine tool production, it didn't run out in '43.

You're thinking about squeeze-bore, not APCR?

No, 100mm of armor actually,

Definately 90mm.

the sides of the turret were 90mm thick

Honestly can't remember.

And rounded armor is also vertical.

No, it gives better protection, look at the IS3's 'inverted frying pan' turret.

- Unless it acts as a shot-trap, of course!

[Soren]

Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer

I'll get it sometime.

I'll be waiting patiently..

The hull was not as heavily armoured, though the big 122mm shell would be a disadvantage there.

It was heavily enough armored to stop the 122mm D25-T's shell, I can assure you of that !

Those are possibilities, true.

No, thats what is going to happen.

Well, no, but KT production wasn't that large...

True, but still 50 ain't much at all.

They were IIRC used on the Western front only?

Yes.

Bovington IIRC.

No.

That is indeed what I'm implying!

Well then your wrong.

Even the short 122mm of the S122 (which was far inferior to the D25T) did that to a TigerI (whose armour was far better quality than the KT's).

You must be kidding me Schwartzpanzer !

Your not seriously comparing the 100mm "Vertical" hull armor of the Tiger Ausf.E, with the 100mm "55 degree sloped" hull armor of the Tiger Ausf.B !

Don't you know what happens when projectiles hit sloped armor as apposed to vertical armor ??

And btw where have you heard that story of yours about the SU-122 ?

At less than 600m? The 1st shot would likely win it.

Not a chance !

Unless it hits the KT's gun barrel of-cause

It doesn't. If t did, every little helps...

Considering the D25-T's already poor accuracy, it has almost zero importance.

At range, less 'lead' is needed.

The longer the range, the longer ahead of the targets axis of movement you'll have to aim. (Depending on the targets speed of-cause)

The KT was also slow...

Thats not going to help the IS-2 at all in a long range engagement, as all the Tiger has to do in such a scenario is to stay put, and open fire at the IS-2 which can do nothing but retreat and try to avoid being blown to pieces.

The were equal or better IMHO.

If thats what your sources are telling you, then you desperately need to check 'their' sources, cause thats an outright lie !

Penetration, RoF, weight etc.
What do you judge guns on??

Penetration at all angles, weight, optics and RoF etc etc.. all these mixed together is what counts..

In penetration power the Kwk43 clearly beats the 90mm M3 and 17pdr, no match. (The 17pdr being the closest to the Kwk43)

As to the optics, well the 17pdr and 90mm M3 both fall awfully short compared to the Kwk43 here as-well.

In weight, well all three weighed alot, the Kwk43 being the heaviest, but the Kwk43's weight is fully outweighed by its performance, that can't be said about the 90mm M3.

In RoF, well they are all pretty equal there. The Kwk43 might be a tad slower because of the large size of its rounds, but its excellent firing system more than compensates for that.

However I must add, for its size the 17pdr was truly excellent, and overall very close to the Kwk43. However the 17pdr lacked the Kwk43's HE capability and advanced optics, both of which are very important on the battlefield.

No, APCR and APFDS were rare and very rare respectively.

No Schwartzpanzer, I'm telling you the Tiger Ausf.B didnt use APCR rounds (And especially not APFDS cause no Tiger ever used that!), Why ? Cause there was none !.

German tungsten supplies had ran out in late 43, so there was none for the medium-heavy tanks as the little that remained was to be used in ammunition for small AT guns only, cause they were useless without it.

BTW IIRC I don't think HVAP (APCR) was available for the 122mm?

No thats right.

Also retro ammo may be used, '88' KwK36 etc.

The Tiger Ausf.E had stopped using APCR rounds already in 43, so there was nothing left for the Tiger Ausf.B to use !

Besides APCBC rounds were much more effective against tanks than APCR rounds anyway, as APCR rounds were "alot" more prone to bounce off sloped armor than the APCBC rounds. The APCR was only really effective against vertical, or lightly sloped armor. Above 35 degree's impact angle, and the APCR's penetration performance drops significantly ! (Same goes for the British APDS round)

Also the APCR didnt explode after penetration, while most APCBC rounds did. And exactly this deadly feature is what would spell instant death for the entire crew of the tank which was penetrated, as the pressure of the explosion would set off the tanks ammunition, blowing it up. (The Germans and Americans both utilized this feature in their APCBC rounds)

but HE can destroy a light tank or say a Cromwells flank...

Yes, thats right, but apart from that it is mainly to be used against infantry, and AP rounds are also preferred against light tanks, as HE rounds arent nearly as accurate.

There was some. Actually, in '44 all supplies went to machine tool production, it didn't run out in '43.

You're thinking about squeeze-bore, not APCR?

Nope.

Definately 90mm.

No, 100mm. (Some source's even quote 160mm in some places)

The IS-I has 90mm of frontal turret armor.