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Thread: Technology and Science from 1901 to 1945

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    Technology and Science from 1901 to 1945

    The Germans were ahead in most scientific fields from the start of WW2 and to the finish. The fields of science where the Germans were clearly ahead until the very end were aerodynamics (And physics in general actually), chemistry & electronics.

    Germany had actually been the leader in technology since way before WW2, and continued to be so until the end of WW2, after which it still continued to be the leader in many areas right up till today actually.

    Ever heard of the University of Göttingen and the labs there ? Most of the great mathematicians & phycisist of the 19th & 20th century went there. Or how about the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Max Planck Institute etc etc ? I guess you never heard of these either?

    The Laboratory of Göttingen was the main center of theoretical and mathematical aerodynamics and fluid dynamics research from soon after 1904 and till the end of WW2, completely leading the way throughout WW2.

    Because of this, since 1904 and throughout WW2, the Germans were ahead in aerodynamics, esp. high speed aerodynamics, Adolf Busemann & Ludwig Prandtl being responsibe for the greatest advances in areodynamics in history. Ludwig Prandtl, the farther of modern aerodynamics, coining the term boundary layer and founding modern mathematical aerodynamics. Prandtl was the absolute & undisputed leader in the field of aerodynamics/fluid dynamics throughout the war.

    Adolf Busemann was the foremost expert in supersonic aerodynamics, and with the help of Prandtl he was the first to discover & establish the characteristics, advantages & disadvantages of the swepped wing. Hence why the Germans were deploying and designing swepped winged jet a/c during WW2, long before anyone else. The famous German designer Hans Multhopp was also an expert in this area.



    Hence why the Germans were fielding the best fighters and most advanced a/c of WW2, the below examples being completely unrivalled:

    Me-262A-1a
    Ta-152H & C
    He-162A-2
    FW-190 D-12 & 13
    Ar-234B-2
    He-277
    Ju-388

    The German advances in aerodynamics was also the reason why they were the leaders in ballistics research and designs, designing & producing the best projectiles of WW2. German rifles, machineguns etc etc were firing heavy boattailed spitzer projectiles (Designation: FMJ-BT) with very high Ballistic Coefficients, and many other specialized types, while nearly all other countries, including the US, still used flat based Spitzer bullets from the first world war. Spitzer bullets (Sharp pointed bullet) are a German/French design btw and were revolutionary in WW1.

    German snipers could because of their better and more accurate projectiles also hit their targets more precisely at longer ranges than Allied snipers, a great tactical advantage on the open battlefield.

    The Germans were also the leaders in rocket science, being the first to deploy self guided ballsitic missiles and air to air rockets.

    Germany was also the leader in radar & infrared techonology, producing the best infrared imaging and being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms & AFV's, a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.

    And like we all know the Germans were also waay ahead throughout the war when it came to designing and building tanks, fielding the unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger & Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants.

    On top of this the Germans were also the undisputed leaders in smallarms & gun design, designing & building the best & most powerful guns of WW2, most notably the unrivalled examples below:

    Smallarms
    MG-42, the best machinegun of WW2 and all time.
    MG-34, the second best machine gun of WW2.
    FG-42, one of the most advanced smallarms of WW2, a supurb LMG.
    StG.44, THE best smallarm of WW2.
    M98, the best bolt action rifle of all time.

    Aircraft armament
    30mm Mk-108
    30mm Mk-103
    20mm MG151/20
    15mm MG151

    Big guns
    128mm KwK/PaK 44 L/55 & L/61, the most powerful AT gun of WW2.
    88mm KwK/PaK 43 L/71, the best tank & AT gun of WW2.
    75mm KwK/PaK 42 L/70, the second best tank gun of WW2.
    170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2.

    And the list goes on....

    Furtermore the Germans were producing the best & most precise optics in the world, Zeiss & Dialytan developing and providing optics for tanks, smallarms, guns, U-boats etc etc of unrivalled quality & precision.

    And talking about U-boats, again the Germans were way ahead with their revolutionary electro boats, the type XXI & XXIII.
    Soren's statement surprised me a bit, I admit that he is quite familar with axis weapons, but what he need is to learn more about allied.

    What's the essence of WWII and WWI?

    World wars are contention for leadership of the world, that is, German empire wanted to take the place of English speaking countries which are mainly UK/USA , and which held nealy 60% industry, 60% sea power and 60% technology/science of the whole world.

    Therefore, the challenger's destiny is doomed, hopeless unless the Martian intervene the earth. LOL


    There is a article called <<A Thousand Years of Science and Scientists:988 to 1988>> written by Davies, Mansell. and which is worthy of reading by us.

    Here is the address (from Harvard Uni?).
    http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/c...&filetype=.pdf


    UK and USA technology/science outcome account for 56.3% of the whole world, and 3 times as many as Deutsch 2nd Reich and 3rd Reich.
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    Last edited by TempestMKV; 11-30-2008 at 11:39 PM.

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    You need to get better educated about European history through the last 300 years Tempest.
    Last edited by Soren; 11-30-2008 at 10:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    You need to get better educated about European history through the last 300 years Tempest.
    Good, here are 350 years history in Europe.
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    Last edited by TempestMKV; 11-30-2008 at 11:42 PM.

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    Err, what is it you're trying to prove with those figures Tempest ??

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    Do I need to point out that Germany could boast with being home to roughly half of the entire world's nobel prize winners by the start of WW2 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    Err, what is it you're trying to prove with those figures Tempest ??
    weapon development background.

    Do you believe China can produce the 1st-class weapons in recent 300 years?

    Definitely, you DON'T believe, neither do I. Because Chinese tech/science outcomes were so few in recent centuries.

    And here is another article about 3rd Reich weapon-developement background, called <<WALL STREET AND
    THE RISE OF HITLER >> where the author demonstrated the enormous capital and tech/science transfer from UK/USA towards Nazi German after WWI.

    Note that capital and tech/science are the most important factors in weapon developement.

    WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER, by Antony C. Sutton
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    There's a reason the Germans were fielding better & more advanced aircraft, vehicles, guns, smallarms, Uboats & electronics than everybody else

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    Quote Originally Posted by TempestMKV View Post
    weapon development background.

    Do you believe China can produce the 1st-class weapons in recent 300 years?

    Definitely, you DON'T believe, neither do I. Because Chinese tech/science outcomes were so few in recent centuries.

    And here is another article about 3rd Reich weapon-developement background, called <<WALL STREET AND
    THE RISE OF HITLER >> where the author demonstrated the enormous capital and tech/science transfer from UK/USA towards Nazi German after WWI.

    Note that capital and tech/science are the most important factors in weapon developement.

    WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER, by Antony C. Sutton
    You don't seem to understand what you're using as reference.

    The US aided German financially before WW2, NOT scientifically, and also provided a lot of natural resources. (As the case with IG Farben) Infact the US paid for German technology, funding Hitler's war production. The Germans were way ahead when it came to the science of synthetic fuels, and the US oil companies payed millions to get the technology from them.

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    Check this out:
    IG Farben - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    IG Farben scientists made fundamental contributions to all areas of chemistry. Otto Bayer discovered the polyaddition for the synthesis of polyurethane in 1937.[25] Several IG Farben scientists were awarded a Nobel Prize. Carl Bosch and Friedrich Bergius were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1931 "in recognition of their contributions to the invention and development of chemical high pressure methods".[26] Gerhard Domagk was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1939 "for the discovery of the antibacterial effects of prontosil".[27] Kurt Alder was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry (together with Otto Diels) in 1950 "for his [their] discovery and development of the diene synthesis".[28]

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    1)Nobel Prize is not everything, there are some other important awards such as Ruska, Gardner, Wolf, filtz and Turing.

    2) UK/USA Nobel prize winners are as many as german. For exmaple, from 1901-1945, both UK and german had 10 physics Nobel prize winners; UK has 1 more medical Nobel prize than german. German had more chemical Nobel than UK/USA. Howver, if u acount all Nobel prize winners from 1901-1945, u will find that UK+USA had more.

    3)Although Nobel prize is the most important award, it concerns more about science than technology while weapon is a technology,in my opinion.

    4)The turnning point is 1920/WWI. The statistics said that USA chemical outcomes exceeded german from 1920 although german had more chemical Nobel winners at that time. Note that after WWI, about 2000 german/austria scientists immigrated to USA.

    5)BEFORE hitler's rise in 1933, BEFORE many jew scientists were forced to leave germany, the tech/science level of USA had already exceeded germany. The turning piont is 1918-1920.

    If you need proof, I'll post them.
    Last edited by TempestMKV; 11-30-2008 at 11:33 PM.

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    Tempest there is no proof to your claims, they're ridiculous.

    Also science & technology go hand in hand, those who lead the way in one also lead the way on the other.

    And the lists you have provided we have no way of saying how reliable they are or what & how many fields of science they incorperate into their final count, and so they're worth nothing at all in our debate.
    Last edited by Soren; 11-30-2008 at 11:30 PM.

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    Btw, plz downsize the pictures you uploaded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soren View Post
    You don't seem to understand what you're using as reference.

    The US aided German financially before WW2, NOT scientifically, and also provided a lot of natural resources. (As the case with IG Farben) Infact the US paid for German technology, funding Hitler's war production. The Germans were way ahead when it came to the science of synthetic fuels, and the US oil companies payed millions to get the technology from them.

    CHAPTER FOUR: Standard Oil Fuels World War II

    In December 1929 the new company, Standard I.G. Company, was organized. F.A. Howard was named president, and its German and American directors were announced as follows: E.M. Clark, Walter Duisberg, Peter Hurll, R.A. Reidemann, H.G. Seidel, Otto von Schenck, and Guy Wellman.

    The majority of the stock in the research company was owned by Standard Oil. The technical work, the process development work, and the construction of three new oil-from-coal plants in the United States was placed in the hands of the Standard Oil Development Company, the Standard Oil technical subsidiary. It is clear from these contemporary reports that the development work on oil from coal was undertaken by Standard Oil of New Jersey within the United States, in Standard Oil plants and with majority financing and control by Standard. The results of this research were made available to I.G. Farben and became the basis for the development of Hitler's oil from-coal-program which made World War II possible.
    The Haslam article, written by a former Professor of Chemical Engineering at M.I.T. (then vice president of Standard Oil of New Jersey) argued — contrary to these recorded facts — that Standard Oil was able, through its Farben agreements, to obtain German technology for the United States. Haslam cited the manufacture of toluol and paratone (Op-panol), used to stabilize viscosity of oil, an essential material for desert and Russian winter tank operations, and buna rubber. However, this article, with its erroneous self-serving claims, found its way to wartime Germany and became the subject of a "Secret" I.G. Farben memorandum dated June 6, 1944 from Nuremburg defendent and then-Farben official von Knieriem to fellow Farben management officials. This yon Knieriem "Secret" memo set out those facts Haslam avoided in his Petroleum Times article. The memo was in fact a summary of what Standard was unwilling to reveal to the American public — i.e., the major contribution made by Standard Oil of New Jersey to the Nazi war machine. The Farben memorandum states that the Standard Oil agreements were absolutely essential for I.G. Farben:

    The closing of an agreement with Standard was necessary for technical, commercial, and financial reasons:technically, because the specialized experience which was available only in a big oil company was necessary to the further development of our process, and no such industry existed in Germany; commercially, because in the absence of state economic control in Germany at that time, IG had to avoid a competitive struggle with the great oil powers, who always sold the best gasoline at the lowest price in contested markets; financially, because IG, which had already spent extraordinarily large sums for the development of the process, had to seek financial relief in order to be able to continue development in other new technical fields, such as buna.8

    The Farben memorandum then answered the key question: What did I.G. Farben acquire from Standard Oil that was "vital for the conduct of war?" The memo examines those products cited by Haslam — i.e., iso-octane, tuluol, Oppanol-Paratone, and buna — and demonstrates that contrary to Standard Oil's public claim, their technology came to a great extent from the U.S., not from Germany.
    On iso-octane the Farben memorandum reads, in part,

    By reason of their decades of work on motor fuels, the Americans were ahead of us in their knowledge of the quality requirements that are called for by the different uses of motor fuels. In particular they had developed, at great expense, a large number of methods of testing gasoline for different uses. On the basis of their experiments they had recognized the good anti, knock quality of iso-octane long before they had any knowledge of our hydrogenation process. This is proved by the single fact that in America fuels are graded in octane numbers, and iso-octane was entered as the best fuel with the number 100. All this knowledge naturally became ours as a result of the agreement, which saved us much effort and protected us against many errors.

    I.G. Farben adds that Haslam's claim that the production of iso-octane became known in America only through the Farben hydrogenation process was not correct:

    Especially in the case of iso-octane, it is shown that we owe much to the Americans because in our own work we could draw widely on American information on the behavior of fuels in motors. Moreover, we were also kept currently informed by the Americans on the progress of their production process and its further development.

    Shortly before the war, a new method for the production of iso-octane was found in America — alkylation with isomerization as a preliminary step. This process, which Mr. Haslain does not mention at all, originates in fact entirely with the Americans and has become known to us in detail in its separate stages through our agreements with them, and is being used very extensively by us.


    On toluol, I.G. Farben points to a factual inaccuracy in the Haslam article: toluol was not produced by hydrogenation in the U.S. is claimed by Professor Haslam. In the case of Oppanol, the I.G. memo calls Haslam's information "incomplete" and so far as buna rubber is concerned, "we never gave technical information to the Americans, nor did technical cooperation in the buna field take place." Most importantly, the Farben memo goes on to describe some products not cited by Haslam in his article:

    As a consequence of our contracts with the Americans, we received from them, above and beyond the agreement, many very valuable contributions for the synthesis and improvement of motor fuels and lubricating oils, which Just now during the war are most useful to us; and we also received other advantages from them. Primarily, the following may be mentioned:

    (1) Above all, improvement of fuels through the addition of tetraethyl-lead and the manufacture of this product. It need not be especially mentioned that without tetraethl-lead the present methods of warfare would be impossible. The fact that since the beginning of the war we could produce tetraethyl-lead is entirely due to the circumstances that, shortly before, the Americans had presented us with the production plans, complete with their know-how. It was, moreover, the first time that the Americans decided to give a license on this process in a foreign country (besides communication of unprotected secrets) and this only on our urgent requests to Standard Oil to fulfill our wish. Contractually we could not demand it, and we found out later that the War Department in Washington gave its permission only after long deliberation.

    (2) Conversion of low-molecular unsaturates into usable gasoline (polymerization). Much work in this field has been done here as well as in America. But the Americans were the first to carry the process through on a large scale, which suggested to us also to develop the process on a large technical scale. But above and beyond that, plants built according to American processes are functioning in Germany.

    (3) In the field of lubricating oils as well, Germany through the contract with America, learned of experience which is extraordinarily important for present day warfare.


    In this connection, we obtained not only the experience of Standard, but, through Standard, the experiences of General Motors and other large American motor companies as well.

    (4) As a further remarkable example of advantageous effect for us of the contract between IG and Standard Oil, the following should be mentioned: in the years 1934 / 1935 our government had the greatest interest in gathering from abroad a stock of especially valuable mineral oil products (in particular, aviation gasoline and aviation lubricating oil), and holding it in reserve to an amount approximately equal to 20 million dollars at market value. The German Government asked IG if it were not possible, on the basis o fits friendly relations with Standard Oil, to buy this amount in Farben's name; actually, however, as trustee of the German Government. The fact that we actually succeeded by means of the most difficult negotiations in buying the quantity desired by our government from the American Standard Oil Company and the Dutch — English Royal — Dutch — Shell group and in transporting it to Germany, was made possible only through the aid of the Standard Oil Co.
    Last edited by TempestMKV; 12-01-2008 at 12:02 AM.

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    Ethyl Lead for the Wehrmacht

    Another prominent example of Standard Oil assistance to Nazi Germany — in cooperation with General Motors — was in supplying ethyl lead. Ethyl fluid is an anti-knock compound used in both aviation and automobile fuels to eliminate knocking, and so improve engine efficiency; without such anti-knocking compounds modern mobile warfare would be impractical.

    In 1924 the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation was formed in New York City, jointly owned by the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey and General Motors Corporation, to control and utilize U.S. patents for the manufacture and distribution of tetraethyl lead and ethyl fluid in the U.S. and abroad. Up to 1935 manufacture of these products was undertaken only in the United States. In 1935 Ethyl Gasoline Corporation transferred its know-how to Germany for use in the Nazi rearmament program. This transfer was undertaken over the protests of the U.S. Government.

    Ethyl's intention to transfer its anti-knock technology to Nazi Germany came to the attention of the Army Air Corps in Washington, D.C. On December 15, 1934 E. W. Webb, president of Ethyl Gasoline, was advised that Washington had learned of the intention of "forming a German company with the I.G. to manufacture ethyl lead in that country." The War Department indicated that there was considerable criticism of this technological transfer, which might "have the gravest repercussions" for the U.S.; that the commercial demand for ethyl lead in Germany was too small to be of interest; and,

    ... it has been claimed that Germany is secretly arming [and] ethyl lead would doubtless be a valuable aid to military aeroplanes.10

    The Ethyl Company was then advised by the Army Air Corps that "under no conditions should you or the Board of Directors of the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation disclose any secrets or 'know-how' in connection with the manufacture of tetraethyl lead to Germany.11

    On January 12, 1935 Webb mailed to the Chief of the Army Air Corps a "Statement of Facts," which was in effect a denial that any such technical knowledge would be transmitted; he offered to insert such a clause in the contract to guard against any such transfer. However, contrary to its pledge to the Army Air Corps, Ethyl subsequently signed a joint production agreement with I.G. Farben in Germany to form Ethyl G.m.b.H. and with Montecatini in fascist Italy for the same purpose.

    It is worth noting the directors of Ethyl Gasoline Corporation at the time of this transfer:12 E.W. Webb, president and director; C.F. Kettering; R.P. Russell; W.C. Teagle, Standard Oil of New Jersey and trustee of FDR's Georgia Warm Springs Foundation; F. A. Howard; E. M. Clark, Standard Oil of New Jersey; A. P. Sloan, Jr.; D. Brown; J. T. Smith; and W.S. Parish of Standard Oil of New Jersey.

    The I.G. Farben files captured at the end of the war confirm the importance of this particular technical transfer for the German Wehrmacht:

    Since the beginning of the war we have been in a position. to produce lead tetraethyl solely because, a short time before the outbreak of the war, the Americans had established plants for us ready for production and supplied us with all available experience. In this manner we did not need to perform the difficult work of development because we could start production right away on the basis of all the experience that the Americans had had for years.13

    In 1938, just before the outbreak of war in Europe, the German Luftwaffe had an urgent requirement for 500 tons of tetraethyl lead. Ethyl was advised by an official of DuPont that such quantities of ethyl would be used by Germany for military purposes.14 This 500 tons was loaned by the Ethyl Export Corporation of New York to Ethyl G.m.b.H. of Germany, in a transaction arranged by the Reich Air Ministry with I.G. Farben director Mueller-Cunradi. The collateral security was arranged in a letter dated September 21, 193815 through Brown Brothers, Harriman & Co. of New York.

    Both B4 and C3 fuel have Ethyl Lead, I can't image how DB601/605 work without Ethyl Lead.

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