What if: M1 Carbine were chambered for .30 Remington?

[diddyriddick]

Originally Posted by Amsel

Or even the .44 Mag was a good carbine cartridge.

The only problem there is that the .44 Magnum wasn't available till the 50s.

[Shortround6]

.44 Magnum is also about 10-15 years too new. It's rimmed case wouldn't be loked upon favorably by automatic weapons designers.

Since recoil is proportinal to momentum rather than energy the heavy bullets of the .44 Magnum aren't going to do much for full auto fire froma light rifle either.

[Doughboy]

Originally Posted by davebender

I agree. However it introduces a new ammunition type into the army supply system. The .45cal round is already the standard SMG and pistol round. Might as well use it for the new carbine also.

That would defeat the purpouse....The M1 Carbine was made to give an officer a little bit more firepower and range....tht their side-arm didn't have.

[Amsel]

Originally Posted by Shortround6

.44 Magnum is also about 10-15 years too new. It's rimmed case wouldn't be loked upon favorably by automatic weapons designers.

Since recoil is proportinal to momentum rather than energy the heavy bullets of the .44 Magnum aren't going to do much for full auto fire froma light rifle either.

Didn't think about that.

[Ivan1GFP]

As stated already, the .30 Carbine is basically a pistol replacement. Unfortunately it looked like a rifle so people used it like one and thus gave it a bad reputation. At one point, I believe prototypes were chambered for something resembling a .223 Remington and it functioned well enough. Now THAT would be a good "Light Rifle" / Assault Rifle. The problem here though is that because of its design (check the way it is held together), the accuracy is severly limited.

Just my opinion regarding design and accuracy.
- Ivan.

[davebender]

M1911 pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When fired from the 5" barrel of a M1911 pistol the .45 ACP round has a muzzel velocity of 830 fps.

Thompson submachine gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When fired from the 10.5" barrel of a Thompson SMG the .45ACP round has a muzzel velocity of 920 fps.

M1 carbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The M1 carbine has an 18" barrel. I expect that would push the .45ACP round to at least 1,000 fps. Not exactly an elephant gun. But you could probably hit man size targets at least 100 meters away. About 10x as far as I can hit anything with a government issue M1911 pistol.

[Clay_Allison]

I don't know why my post about it disappeared, maybe my computer ate it. Anyway, I said that the US Army could have adopted the Model 8 Autoloader chambered for the 30 Remington and had an assault rifle years before the Germans came up with the Stg-44. The 30 Remington is a rimless 30-30, only slightly more powerful than the 7.62x39 that the AK fires. It would have been a great weapon.

The Model 8 was invented by John Moses Browning and was (still is) a very tough, robust, accurate gun.

Here is a pic of one with an extended mag, as it might have been deployed.

[renrich]

Perhaps a better alternative would have been the 276 Pederson. A carbine chambered for it would have been a little larger and heavier but if the Pederson round had had a 130 grain spitzer bullet at about 2200 feet per second, it may have been suitable for full auto fire. As it was the M1 Carbine in it's full auto version could be classified as an assault rifle.

[gjs238]

Originally Posted by Clay_Allison

I don't know why my post about it disappeared, maybe my computer ate it. Anyway, I said that the US Army could have adopted the Model 8 Autoloader chambered for the 30 Remington and had an assault rifle years before the Germans came up with the Stg-44. The 30 Remington is a rimless 30-30, only slightly more powerful than the 7.62x39 that the AK fires. It would have been a great weapon.

The Model 8 was invented by John Moses Browning and was (still is) a very tough, robust, accurate gun.

Here is a pic of one with an extended mag, as it might have been deployed.

Wait a minute...
Remington Model 8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Firearm Model History - Remington Model 8

John Browning was granted U.S. Patent 659,786 on October 16, 1900 for this rifle.
Production started 1906.
Calibers were what today we would call intermediate cartridges.
The website mentions a 20 round box magazine.

Was the martial utility of this rifle ever looked into?

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Folks,

The issue here is the degree of modification to the basic M1 Carbine to make it accept the alternative ammunition. For those that have never seen a M1 Carbine up close, the bolt is very small diameter with a small bolt face. The round is also very short. The spent cases bear a great resemblance to used cigarette butts. As such, to make it capable of shooting a .45 ACP round or a .276 Pederson round or a .30-30 length round would require a complete re-design from the ground up. Suggesting these rounds is like saying the M16 would make a great rifle if it were rechambered for a .45-70 or a .50 cal Browning.

What-ifs are fine, and I have nothing against a bit of fantasy here and there, but just be sure to recognise such flights from reality.

Now I guess I should get off my soap box.
- Ivan.

[gjs238]

Originally Posted by Ivan1GFP

Hello Folks,

The issue here is the degree of modification to the basic M1 Carbine to make it accept the alternative ammunition. For those that have never seen a M1 Carbine up close, the bolt is very small diameter with a small bolt face. The round is also very short. The spent cases bear a great resemblance to used cigarette butts. As such, to make it capable of shooting a .45 ACP round or a .276 Pederson round or a .30-30 length round would require a complete re-design from the ground up. Suggesting these rounds is like saying the M16 would make a great rifle if it were rechambered for a .45-70 or a .50 cal Browning.

What-ifs are fine, and I have nothing against a bit of fantasy here and there, but just be sure to recognise such flights from reality.

Now I guess I should get off my soap box.
- Ivan.

The what-if wasn't for modifying an M1 Carbine for a different caliber.
It asks if the operating principle/design could be scaled up for an intermediate power cartridge.

[Shortround6]

Originally Posted by gjs238

Wait a minute...

John Browning was granted U.S. Patent 659,786 on October 16, 1900 for this rifle.
Production started 1906.
Calibers were what today we would call intermediate cartridges.
The website mentions a 20 round box magazine.

Was the martial utility of this rifle ever looked into?

Yes it was, it was judged not suitable.
Weither the reasons were real or imagianed I can't say. It did use a recoiling barrel in a full length jacket which some peaple were worried could becomeve bent, dented or damaged and jam the rifle. It did not use full power ammuntion. It actually wasn't that light in weight less than 1/2 pound lighter than a 1903 Springfield and that is with the 5 round magazine.

ANd only the 25 caliber is what we would really call an intermediate cartridge. A 170 grain bullet even at 2200fps is going to have about the same kick as a 123 grain at around 3000fps if we disregard the recoil effect of the propellent.

[Clay_Allison]

Originally Posted by Shortround6

Yes it was, it was judged not suitable.
Weither the reasons were real or imagianed I can't say. It did use a recoiling barrel in a full length jacket which some peaple were worried could becomeve bent, dented or damaged and jam the rifle. It did not use full power ammuntion. It actually wasn't that light in weight less than 1/2 pound lighter than a 1903 Springfield and that is with the 5 round magazine.

ANd only the 25 caliber is what we would really call an intermediate cartridge. A 170 grain bullet even at 2200fps is going to have about the same kick as a 123 grain at around 3000fps if we disregard the recoil effect of the propellent.

If you think a 30-30 recoils like a 30-06 I have to wonder at whether you contrasted them very well.

The reason it was judged unsuitable (IMHO) is for the same reason Hitler fought the Stg44 idea so insistently they had to label it a submachinegun during development so he wouldn't shoot the idea down. "Conventional Wisdom" was not ready for an assault rifle concept, they wouldn't be ready for one in America until the 1960s!

[Shortround6]

Originally Posted by Clay_Allison

If you think a 30-30 recoils like a 30-06 I have to wonder at whether you contrasted them very well.

The reason it was judged unsuitable (IMHO) is for the same reason Hitler fought the Stg44 idea so insistently they had to label it a submachinegun during development so he wouldn't shoot the idea down. "Conventional Wisdom" was not ready for an assault rifle concept, they wouldn't be ready for one in America until the 1960s!

I am not contrasting a 30-30 to a 30-06. I am contrasting a 30-30 to a 7.62 x39.
Recoil is much more proportinal to momentum (mass times velocity) than it is to energy (mass times velocity squared).
I have read that the Remington Model 8 was used as a control weapon in tests of semi-automatic rifles by the US Military in the 1920s. IF true it means that they had already rejected the Model at as a military weapon but not rejected the IDEA of a semi-autometic battle rifle.

[gjs238]

Originally Posted by gjs238

Re: Remington Model 8

John Browning was granted U.S. Patent 659,786 on October 16, 1900 for this rifle.
Production started 1906.
Calibers were what today we would call intermediate cartridges.
The website mentions a 20 round box magazine.

Was the martial utility of this rifle ever looked into?

Does anyone know when the Browning BAR was patented and entered production?
Browning BAR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Talking about the semi-auto rifle, not the M1918.
Wondering if that entered production early enough to be relevant to this discussion.