What went wrong most for Germany?

[syscom3]

P38, the western world knew exactly about communism. Read the following, its from a web site.

"In 1932-33 millions of Ukrainians died in the largest Famine of the 20th century. This Famine was not caused by a natural calamity such as drought or epidemic or pestilence. It was not the result of devastation or privation caused by a cataclysmic event such as war.

The Famine in Ukraine was engineered, orchestrated and directed from the Kremlin. It was implemented by Stalin and his comrades in order to complete Ukraine's subjugation to Moscow. Starvation became the tool and the Ukrainian farmers became the main victims."

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resour...kgrounder.html

P38, did you know the US did not recognize the USSR untill Nov 1933?

P38, Did you know that in 1918, US troops actually fought INSIDE of Russia on the side of the anti-communists?

P38, did you know that in 1939, the greatest hope of France and Britain is that Hitler would fight it out with Stalin and leave western Europe out of the fight?

I myself think that we owe it to the Russians for so weakening Germany, we could successfully invade Normandy. Consider the alternative if we werent in Germany by the time we deployed the first atmic bomb. Berlin was going to be nuked.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by syscom3

I myself think that we owe it to the Russians for so weakening Germany, we could successfully invade Normandy. Consider the alternative if we werent in Germany by the time we deployed the first atmic bomb. Berlin was going to be nuked.

I agree. If Germany were not fighting a 2 front war at the time. D-Day may have been differently and the war may have lasted longer.

I agree that Germany would have been Nuked but I dont think it would have been Berlin. I think it would have been a smaller city somewhere.

[P38 Pilot]

Well you can also thank the Russians for powering China and even North Korea causing two more wars with a devasating effect. We still have a problem with N.Korea this very day. Having to make peace agreements fearing that the Korean leader may hit the US or some other country with a nuke.

I actually thought of that plan all up on my own. It was just a little idea that what if Hitler had never been som evil and cruel and had not ordered Holocaust excutions.

With Communism, the world is under a little threat. Hell there are communist in Cuba and where i live they are considered our "next-door-neighbors."

Im not praising Hitler. He was sick, demented, and insane. But what if history took another toll. What if Hitler hadnt done the stuff he did to start a Second World War? We knew that Russia would sooner or later start invading other countries. For example, they made a attempt in the 1980's into invading Afghanisatn and almost turing that into USSR terroritory having not only power in the east but in the Middle East!

Alder, you are right about the Nuclear bomb. Germany was producing their own nuke and could have dropped it. But history plays itself.

Nazi Germany was stopped. Soviet Union grew. Korean war later came knocking at our doors. Soldiers later fought Communist in Vietnam.

Today Communism still exists. It exists today and hopefully one day it will be destroyed. It may be a war I might have to fight. Who knows?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by P38 Pilot

Alder, you are right about the Nuclear bomb. Germany was producing their own nuke and could have dropped it. But history plays itself.

Where did I say that Germany was going to use a Nuke? I never said that, what I said was that Germany would have eventually got nuked.

Originally Posted by P38 Pilot

Today Communism still exists. It exists today and hopefully one day it will be destroyed. It may be a war I might have to fight. Who knows?

I seriously doubt we will see a war like the one you are thinking about in our lifetimes again.

[Udet]

" I myself think that we owe it to the Russians for so weakening Germany, we could successfully invade Normandy"

Well, it depends on how you approach it. May or maybe not...

Of course the eastern front "drained" Germany´s resources. I find it amusing many researchers and history buffs use such assertion to imply some sort of German incompetence.

It was by far the largest front Germany opened, both in terms of territory and of human/material resources of the enemy.

So what do those researchers would have liked Germany to do?

Oh, easy answer: to launch Barbarossa with just 2 panzer divisionen and 5 infantry divisions, and to keep the 90% of the Heer in occupied France waiting for the eventual return of the small and shocked BEF resting and refitting in its island. Wasn´t Hitler such an idiot in using the bulk of the Heer in the USSR?


To affirm Russia "weakened" Germany is a somewhat tricky game of words.

Can be quite the oppposite, the German smash of 1941, 1942 made the soviet giant stumble.

The USSR, sorry for my countrymen, would have never get past the Dniester (that being generous) without the Lend Lease, and the massive build up of the 8th and 15th Air Foces in Europe, no matter how many books and articles russian WWII websites continue releasing to "prove" the war would have ended the same with or without LL and the help of the armies of the west.

Likewise, the USA was, in fact, very dependant of soviet blood. A regime such as Stalin´s had a valuable item: the lives of millions of soldiers, partisans and citizens to be spared waging the war with an astonishingly high death toll accepted. Add LL and the fleets of heavy bombers of both RAF and USAAF in the west, also their armies.

Any amateur can come up with the most likely of the outcomes.


The USA also had a numerically juicy human base; a fundamental difference, however, is evident. The USA is not willing to spend human lives following the bolshevik fashion, no matter how many millions they can send to the fronts.

In a democracy, USA democracy, the lives of their men DO matter.

A tyranny has the upper hand over a Democracy when a war is being waged.

So? Do we detect some sort of symbiosis here? Both parties equally depending on the effort of the other?

What went wrong? It is most likely Hitler sent his armies out to fight a war impossible to be won, even if he had the most skilled and professional warriors of the planet.


With 2 individuals such as Hitler and Stalin in office in the same period of time in Europe, nothing different from the known facts still discussed today could have happened.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In a way the East Front did weaken Germany. The East front too up so much of Germany's manpower, weapons, tanks, and aircraft. Imagine all that being on the Western Front.

[syscom3]

Stalingrad and Kursk removed 500,000 troops from the battlefield. That includes untold numbers of tanks, self propelled guns, towed artillery pieces and aircraft. Now also include the divisons that had to be stationed in the east just to slow down the red army, let alone stop it. In the end, a significant ammount of Germanys resources was consumed in the east.

All it would have taken for the Normandy landings to have failed was to have a few more panzer divisions located near (not on) the beachheads.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree syscom.

[cheddar cheese]

Ditto.

[Gnomey]

Well put syscom3.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

A lot of people dont understand how of a mutual thing it was for the allies and the soviets. Both sides depended on one another.

[P38 Pilot]

Yeah, well, you have a point there.... Germany was split two sides in fighting. You either went east or west.

[reddragon]

I have some thoughts on it but will have to wait until later to post, but it's always easy to look back and see mistakes than it is to be at the point of decision making and trying for a different outcome.

[schwarzpanzer]

Churchill hated Communism, but gave a speech about it paling into insignificance vs Nazism.

We may have still fought with China, but we would have weakended them so badly Communism would have been destroyed

It was likely Soviet influence that caused China to go Communist?

Communists aren't demons either P38!

Hitler also could have handled the Jewish issue better. Instead of being evil and ordering their deaths, he could of had sent some out of the country. Thats it.

Agreed, but as others have said, very unlikely.

Germany probably could have become a powerful country next to USA or UK.

Germany is more powerful than the UK.

Apart from the fact that nukes are forbidden.

The world would have been better if Hitler did this instead of invading Poland on September 1st, 1939.

This was the whole point, taking back Dansig and Krakow etc.

P38, did you know that in 1939, the greatest hope of France and Britain is that Hitler would fight it out with Stalin and leave western Europe out of the fight?

Suppose Stalin had won though?

This was not an option.

The closest thing to what P38 is talking about would be what Patton said?

Consider the alternative if we werent in Germany by the time we deployed the first atmic bomb. Berlin was going to be nuked.

Churchill actually planned chemical attacks!

It exists today and hopefully one day it will be destroyed.

What the hell are you saying! You're nearly as bad as Hitler??

So what do those researchers would have liked Germany to do?

I think it's well accepted that his mistake was pursuing idealogical goals, but then was Stalin's mistake in defending them?

Also he could have had most of the USSR on his side, if he had played his cards right.

I think it was well said earlier (by PlanD) that with UK air and sea superiority, that the Axis had no chance whatsoever?

Kursk was a beauty! someone said to Hitler:

"Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is??"

A lot of people dont understand how of a mutual thing it was for the allies and the soviets.

Very true, Hitler criticised the German WW1 leaders for taking Germany to war on two fronts, then did it himself.

He also knew what happened to Napoleon, but did it anyway!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by schwarzpanzer

It was likely Soviet influence that caused China to go Communist?

Communists aren't demons either P38!

I agree here. Most people that lived in the Soviet Union or China were not bad evil people. They were oppressed by there government and kept in the dark about democracy.