What went wrong most for Germany?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Stalingrad was bombed to pieces. It was bombed worse than London.

[schwarzpanzer]

Yes I know, but I'd have bombed it more!

I wouldn't have stopped until it was a wasteland, not 1 wall left standing, I'd have sent in the Rammtigers to make sure.

It would have been as good in that state as captured?

- SG was impossible to hold IMHO.


Also the bombers relieved from London could have made life hell for massed Soviet troops and tanks?

This makes me wonder whether London was a dafter target than SG?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What are you talking about Stalingrad was bombed to ruins. It was a wasteland. I wish my Grandfather would have been able to bring back photos from SG. Stalingrad was leveled to nothing.

[schwarzpanzer]

Almost nothing, then again the sewers still held soldiers and civilians and T34's were still being made. There was something for the Soviets to take back, I'd have denied them even that small part.

What you said is obviously true, just a little more pressure?

Also with no German tropps on the ground, the bombers could have free reign and there would be no capturees?

[reddragon]

I don't think it would have been possible to use air power against the Russian army. I don't know at what time it happened, but the Russians gained control of the air in the latter stages of Case Blue.

[plan_D]

It was impossible to bomb Stalingrad into any worse of a state. Stalingrad had become a massive pile of rubble and it provided excellent cover for the ground troops. Rubble is much easier to defend than standing buildings.

The object of Moscow was to destroy the Soviet communication and rail centre, which has been mentioned. Capturing the city would have slowed all Red Army reserve movements to any of the other fronts. It would have affected all those actions to the west of Moscow, most importantly at the time being Leningrad. All reserves that moved to the front against the Wehrmacht went through Moscow. It was the rail center of the Soviet Union. It mattered little to the Wehrmacht if they could use it or not, they would have destroyed the Red Armies capability to move troops quickly.

The object of Leningrad was simply to destroy a garrison in it's rear area and link up with the forces of Finland. The siege of Leningrad occured because the Wehrmacht knew it was a pointless venture to waste troops on.

The object of Stalingrad was political when concerning the city itself. When concerning the whole operation, it was far from political. The original plan called for an advance of the 6th Armee and 4th Panzer Armee on the River Don. The 6th Armee would arrive just north of Stalingrad with the city on it's right flank. This would cut off the Caucasus, with Stalingrad included leaving a small avenue of escape through Stalingrad (although risky because of the Luftwaffe) and just south of the city.
4th Panzer Armee was to advance south into the Caucasus after capturing Rostov on Don (the north-western point of the net on the Caucasus). They would swoop in, destroy all Red Army forces in there and capture the oil fields. Stalingrad itself was never an objective.

The Red Army, however, melted away from the advancing Army Group South. Hitler took this as an all out rout of the Red Army and diverted forces from the 6th Armee to head south with the 4th Panzer Armee. This deprived the 6th of it's armour, but it still had to move on to it's objective which it did capture thus encircling the Caucasus. However, Hitler then ordered the 6th into Stalingrad ...and the rest is history.

During Operation Barbarossa, the only thing that halted the panzers were the weather and the mud baths the Russians called "roads". Hitler wanted his forces to press on faster but had to be told, repeatedly, that it wasn't possible. The one thing that stopped a full advance on Moscow was the diversion of panzers from the attack on Moscow to encircle the forces outside Kiev, which was the biggest encirclement in history.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As for the T-34s still being made, the Russians were very good at building out of nothing. They did in just about all of the cities that were laid to rubble or waste and were being sieged. The factory would be destroyed and they would continue to build.

[schwarzpanzer]

Cheers for that reddragon , could that have been countered?

It would have affected all those actions to the west of Moscow, most importantly at the time being Leningrad.

Aha! Cheers PlanD.

All reserves that moved to the front against the Wehrmacht went through Moscow.

Nice!

This would cut off the Caucasus, with Stalingrad included leaving a small avenue of escape through Stalingrad (although risky because of the Luftwaffe) and just south of the city.

Yeah I mentioned that.

However, Hitler then ordered the 6th into Stalingrad...

What an idiot.

The one thing that stopped a full advance on Moscow was the diversion of panzers from the attack on Moscow to encircle the forces outside Kiev, which was the biggest encirclement in history.

Also THE biggest mistake of WW2 IMHO, I think the main critic of this was Guderian?

Originally Posted by DerAdler

The factory would be destroyed and they would continue to build.

There's destroyed, then there's destroyed, but if that was all that could be done...

I still say ALL bombers should have hit it though?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No read your history books, they continued to produce out of the destroyed factories in besieged cities.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

No read your history books, they continued to produce out of the destroyed factories in besieged cities.

They also uprooted their factories and put them together again the otherside of the Urals out of reach of the Germans.

[schwarzpanzer]

That would frustrate me, I can only guess how Hitler felt about it!

The Stalingrad factory was a weird one, unlike the Kirov plant etc it seemed to be copied rather than moved?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes that they did too, they moved behind the Urals. The Germans needed long range bombers and that they did not have.

[HealzDevo]

It was a waste of resources having tanks such as the Panzer III or earlier on the battlefield. Also the Kingtiger was a waste of resources. If the Germans had of fielded a large army of Panthers they could have been more successful. Also if they weren't pumping help to Italy they could have devoted more resources to attacking the Allies and winning. Also more long-sightedness in aircraft design such as redesigning the engines of the He-177 Grief which would have made it an effective Heavy Bomber for Germany. A squadron or two of Horton flying wings as fighters, fighter-bombers, and bombers would have done a lot of damage to the Allies at least during their initial period in operation.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Horton Ho-229 if that is what you are talking about did not fly until 1945 and still had a lot of work on it.

Germany had to invest in Italy, if they did not then the Soft Underbelly would have been just that.

[schwarzpanzer]

HealzDevo:

It was a waste of resources having tanks such as the Panzer III or earlier on the battlefield.

True to a point, but the Stugs/JgdPz's and Pz38 for e.g. were still very useful.

Also the Kingtiger was a waste of resources.

It was an effective 'hero tank' IMHO, pity about the mechanicals/quality.

If the Germans had of fielded a large army of Panthers they could have been more successful.

Don't forget the T34/76 and Sherman and Cromwell 75mm's could take the Panther/JagdPanther out (and frequently did). Not so the KonigsTiger.

Also if they weren't pumping help to Italy they could have devoted more resources to attacking the Allies and winning.

IMHO Britain itself should have been ignored and it's Empire attacked sooner with help from Japan/Italy.

Also give out plans for the PzIV-F2+, StuG-G, Hetzer and FW190.

Also more long-sightedness in aircraft design such as redesigning the engines of the He-177 Grief which would have made it an effective Heavy Bomber for Germany.

Have you got a picture of the He-177 Grief please?

A squadron or two of Horton flying wings as fighters, fighter-bombers, and bombers would have done a lot of damage to the Allies at least during their initial period in operation.

I know it would be a great NachtJager/bomber, dunno about dayfighter/bomber?