What went wrong most for Germany?

[Erich]

simple fact, Germany in her stupidity let a small UGLY Austrian come into power with other UGLY renagade numb-nutz to bolster his insane ideas..........end of a terrible story

[Soren]

Lets be honest....

Hitler made no mistake in attacking Russia in 41, infact it was perfect timing, he caught the Russian army completely offguard. No his mistake was declaring war on the U.S., that was his biggest mistake ever, it was a mistake that if it had been avoided Hitler could've won the war.

Without a war against the U.S., Germany could've easily defeated the Soviet Union, heck even with a war on three fronts they came damn close to succeed in doing so anyway.

Even if Hitler had not declared war on the US, after Pearl Harbor the US would have declared war on Germany.

Why ? The Japanese dropped those bombs at Pearl Harbor, not the Germans.

I don't think Roosevelt would have had any interest in waging war against the Germans by then, as he knew he would already have to fight the Japanese (which up till then had shown to be a deadly foe of considerable strength), and seeing that Russia was on the brink of defeat it would've made very little sense to make such a decision.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Erich

simple fact, Germany in her stupidity let a small UGLY Austrian come into power with other UGLY renagade numb-nutz to bolster his insane ideas..........end of a terrible story

Amen.

[syscom3]

I have to look closer at the record on the political situation in the US in the days after Pearl Harbor, but it does seem that once we were at war with Japan, taking shots preemptively at Germany would come a lot easier than before. Congress and the President were in no mood to listen to the rants and raves from Hitler.

"the Genie was out of the bottle" so to speak.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Erich

simple fact, Germany in her stupidity let a small UGLY Austrian come into power with other UGLY renagade numb-nutz to bolster his insane ideas..........end of a terrible story

Agreed

Originally Posted by Soren

Hitler made no mistake in attacking Russia in 41, infact it was perfect timing, he caught the Russian army completely offguard.

Negative the timing was wrong. Read your history books and read what the German Field Marschals and Generals said. Hitler postponed the invasion because of the attacks on Yugoslavia and Greece. Those 6 weeks I believe it was that he postponed it meant 6 weeks earlier of the Harsh Winter that eventually was the destruction of Hitlers Army's just like Napoleon before him. Hitler obviously did not read his history books either.

Originally Posted by Soren

Why ? The Japanese dropped those bombs at Pearl Harbor, not the Germans.

Roosevelt was silent supporter of Englands war against Germany. He even stated in memoirs that he wanted to help out his European friend. Once the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt would have pushed for a declaration of war against Germany aswell.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Negative the timing was wrong. Read your history books and read what the German Field Marschals and Generals said. Hitler postponed the invasion because of the attacks on Yugoslavia and Greece. Those 6 weeks I believe it was that he postponed it meant 6 weeks earlier of the Harsh Winter that eventually was the destruction of Hitlers Army's just like Napoleon before him. Hitler obviously did not read his history books either.

No Adler the timing was good enough, had he tried to attack 2 months earlier his army wouldn't have been as ready as it was. It was litterally having mountains of winter-clothes hanging on standby in Germany while the winter raged in Russia which was bad timing, not the start of the war. Cause the German army was actually fully prepared for the winter, however 'again' Hitler made a crucial mistake of not sending them their winter-clothes. (Thats something you can read in the History books Adler )

Btw I wouldn't exactly call the winter war a "failure" for Hitler either, just look up the casualty list Adler, the Russians lost way more men in that period. (Like always)

Roosevelt was silent supporter of Englands war against Germany. He even stated in memoirs that he wanted to help out his European friend.

So ? Just because he wasn't a supporter of Hitlers campaign doesn't mean he would actually go ahead and go to war with him. I mean you wouldn't go punch someone who was about to pick up a weapon which could kill you just because you don't support his opinion, now would you ?

By putting yourself in Roosevelt's shoes and looking at the troublesome situation of the time, going to war with Hitler would've made no sense what so ever. What if Russia fell ?, then the U.S. would be in serious trouble, having to fight two powerful armies at once, with one now having unlimited supplies. Can't you see it ?

Once the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt would have pushed for a declaration of war against Germany aswell.

Negative Adler, that would've been very stupid of Roosevelt, cause he did not yet know how powerful Japan was, which up till then had shown to be of considerable power, severely bashing the U.S. pacific fleet. And seeing that Russia was on the brink of defeat, waging war against Germany and Japan simultaneously would've looked very stupid indeed.

Try to look at it from a 1941ish point of view, cause that Russia wasn't going to fall because of a series of stupid decisions by Hitler no'one could know at that point.

[plan_D]

I believe the timing for the invasion of Russia was perfect in it's original form. The delay that the Balkans campaign caused was unfortunate, but the year of assault was perfect. The Red Army was in no way prepared tactically or mechanically to wage a new kind of war, by spring 1942 they would have been ready to halt the German advances with waves of T-34s that they just did not have in 1941.

I do not believe it to be the fault of Hitler for the lack of winter clothing, nor do I believe the Wehrmacht was ready for winter, as I have read the opposite in Panzer Leader by Col. Gen. Heinz Guderian;

"Preparations made for the winter were utterly inadequate. For weeks we had been requesting anti-freeze for the water coolers of our engines; we saw as little of this as we did of winter clothing for the troops. This lack of warm clothes, was, in the difficult months ahead, to provide the greatest problem and cause the greatest suffering to our soldiers-and it would have been the easiest to avoid of all our problems." - Pg. 237.

"On November 13th...The combat strength of the infantry had sunk to an average of 50 men per company. The lack of winter clothing was become increasingly felt." - Pg. 247.

"In XXIV Panzer Corps the frost was unpleasantly in evidence, since the tanks could not move up the ice-covered slopes for lack of the requisite calks for the tanks." - Pg. 247.

"The supply situation was bad. Snow shirts, boot grease, underclothes and above all woollen trousers were not available. The high proportion of the men were still wearing denim trousers, and the temperature was 8 below zero! [Farenheit]." - Pg. 248

Now, this is the section that shows how Hitler was not at fault. In a conversation between Guderian and Hitler;

"I [Guderian]: 'Naturally it is my duty to lessen the suffering of my soldiers so far as that lies within my power. But it is hard when the men have even now not yet received their winter clothing and the greater part of the infantry are still going about in denim uniforms. Boots, vests, gloves, woollen helmets are either non-existent or else hopelessly worn out.'
Hitler shouted: 'That is not true. The Quartermaster-General informed me that the winter clothing had been issued.'
I: 'I dare say it has been issued but it has never arrived. I have made it my business to find out what has happened to it. At present it is in Warsaw station, where it has been for the last several weeks, since it cannot be sent on owing to a lack of locomotives and obstructions to the lines. Our requests that it be forwarded in September and October were bluntly refused. Now it's too late.'

The Quartermaster-General was sent for and had to admit that what I had said was correct."

It was, in actual fact, the fault of OKW not Hitler that winter provisions had not been provided to the front-line troops.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

No Adler the timing was good enough, had he tried to attack 2 months earlier his army wouldn't have been as ready as it was. It was litterally having mountains of winter-clothes hanging on standby in Germany while the winter raged in Russia which was bad timing, not the start of the war. Cause the German army was actually fully prepared for the winter, however 'again' Hitler made a crucial mistake of not sending them their winter-clothes. (Thats something you can read in the History books Adler )

I dont have to read it in a History Books Soren, I have read my Grandfathers diaries. He fought on the East Front and was captured at Stalingrad. I have read about him opening up packages of Summer Uniforms in the dead of winter rather than recieving Winter Uniforms that is unprepared, and that was a grave Mistake.

Yes it was the right year and yes the Russians were not ready, but had they attacked on time rather than the delay for the Balkans, the Eastern Front may have been over by the time Winter hit.

Originally Posted by Soren

Btw I wouldn't exactly call the winter war a "failure" for Hitler either, just look up the casualty list Adler, the Russians lost way more men in that period. (Like always)

Whats your point, Vietnam was a military victory for the United States. Over 2 million N. Vietmanese and VC were killed to aprox. 60,000 US soldiers. Was Vietnam a victory? NO. Killing people does not determine how successful a campaign is.

Originally Posted by Soren

Negative Adler, that would've been very stupid of Roosevelt, cause he did not yet know how powerful Japan was, which up till then had shown to be of considerable power, severely bashing the U.S. pacific fleet. And seeing that Russia was on the brink of defeat, waging war against Germany and Japan simultaneously would've looked very stupid indeed.

No if that were the case, Roosevelt would not have decided to make Germany the priority over Japan anyhow when the US entered. Now would he have?

[Soren]

First of all thanks pD for clearing up who was at fault for the already ready stocks of winter-clothes not arriving.

I dont have to read it in a History Books Soren, I have read my Grandfathers diaries. He fought on the East Front and was captured at Stalingrad. I have read about him opening up packages of Summer Uniforms in the dead of winter rather than recieving Winter Uniforms that is unprepared, and that was a grave Mistake.

Indeed it was, but it can't be blamed on the start of Operation Barbarossa. The Winter-clothes should've been there, but by some mistake it wasn't, eventhough it was made and ready.

Yes it was the right year and yes the Russians were not ready, but had they attacked on time rather than the delay for the Balkans, the Eastern Front may have been over by the time Winter hit.

It may or it may not, that is something we can ponder about for ages, but had the winter-clothes just arrived on schedule the German advance would have been effected very little by the winter, and the outcome could've been very different.

Whats your point, Vietnam was a military victory for the United States. Over 2 million N. Vietmanese and VC were killed to aprox. 60,000 US soldiers. Was Vietnam a victory? NO. Killing people does not determine how successful a campaign is.

I did not mention anything about how "successful" the winter war was for Hitler, cause it was anything BUT that, but it wasn't the ultimate death-blow to the German army either. By 1942 the German army still had the capability to actually win the war in the east.

No if that were the case, Roosevelt would not have decided to make Germany the priority over Japan anyhow when the US entered. Now would he have ?

Ofcause he would, only a complete fool would see Japan as the biggest threat at that time ! Germany was at its might by this time, having made a fool of both the French, British, Polish, Danish, Norwegian and Russian army in a very short space of time !
Japan was still a mystery, but had afterall only had one major success by this time, with Germany having countless major successes. So it wouldn't take a genius to figure out which of those two was the biggest threat.

Deliberately going to war with Germany in 41 would've looked insane, almost like pure suicide, so Roosevelt wouldn't have done it.

That Hitler would make a large series of mistakes which would ultimately lead such a powerful army to defeat, absolutely no'one could know or imagine at that point. Because had Hitler defeated the Russians in 41, which everyone thought he would, the US would've been in no condition to actually wage a successful war against him.

So would it have been a grave mistake by Roosevelt to deliberately go to war with Hitler at the time ? NO ! but would it have looked that way ? YES ! And had Hitler actually defeated the Russians in 41, then it would've not only looked like a grave mistake by Roosevelt, but it would've also been one.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

Indeed it was, but it can't be blamed on the start of Operation Barbarossa. The Winter-clothes should've been there, but by some mistake it wasn't, eventhough it was made and ready.

I never blamed the loss of the winter war on the fact that winter equipment was not supplied. I just said it was a facter. There are many more factors that come into play in the Winter that ruined things for Hitler. His tanks and equipment became stuck in the hard terraign, the soldiers equipment did not work as effectivly. If Hitler had not delayed the start of the Barbarossa, this may or may not have happened. I believe had Hitler started 6 weeks ealierer as orginially planned Hitler would have defeated Russia.

Originally Posted by Soren

It may or it may not, that is something we can ponder about for ages, but had the winter-clothes just arrived on schedule the German advance would have been effected very little by the winter, and the outcome could've been very different.

I agree with you that it is something that we will never know, but there is more to it than just the uniforms. Equipment works differently in the winter also.

Originally Posted by Soren

I did not mention anything about how "successful" the winter war was for Hitler, cause it was anything BUT that, but it wasn't the ultimate death-blow to the German army either. By 1942 the German army still had the capability to actually win the war in the east.

Then make yourself more clear when you post something because many times people dont understand what you are sayint because of the way you say it. Because by saying this below:

Btw I wouldn't exactly call the winter war a "failure" for Hitler either, just look up the casualty list Adler, the Russians lost way more men in that period.

It sounds like you are saying that that is the only way conflicts are won and that Hitler actually won the winter war because he killed more Russians than the Russians killed German.

I understand now what you were saying but make yourself more clear.

[Soren]

I'm sorry I did not making myself clearer, and I'm glad you now understand what I was saying.

And I fully agree that winter-clothes wouldn't have been the solution to everything either, mechanical difficulties would still occur, but it would've made life on the eastern front much much easier on the Germans. Cause having your soldiers wear the right clothing would also solve alot of mechanical difficulties as-well, cause when your soldiers hands and feet are frozen then they don't work very well at all, allowing many mechanical difficulties to arise which could've otherwise been avoided with the proper clothing.

[plan_D]

Most mechanical difficulties could have been solved simply by the issue of anti-freeze. The OKW were so drunk on the scent of victory that none believed the war could drag on into the winter. I believe the Wehrmacht was ready, but the Wehrmacht at the front wasn't.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree with both you on that.

[Vassili Zaitzev]

I tell you what went wrong for Germany. Having that psychopathic idiot Hitler who never reached a rank beyond corporal in the armed forces. Yet when his generals who knew more about tatics than him offered sound advice, he didn't listen to him and instead issued the " fight to the last man" crap that sent the 6th army at stalingrad to starve in the russian POW camps. Before D-day he solved the argument between Von Rundstedt and Rommel about the panzer release by saying he would control the movement of the panzer divisions in Normandy, yet on D-day he took sleeping pills and slept through the invasion.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap that is a valid point. My grandfather was captured at Stalingrad by the way.