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10-16-2009, 09:33 AM
| #1 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: perth
Posts: 109
| Who Shot Down the Most Aces in WW2? Hi im a newbie so i hope i posted this in the right place  Iv been reading up on Luftwaffe Ace Otto Schulz he shot down 7 ace's out of his 51 kills thats the most iv heard of by 1 pilot dose anyone know of any higher?  |
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10-16-2009, 11:42 AM
| #2 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa
Posts: 3,446
| AAA |
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10-16-2009, 11:42 AM
| #3 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 3,942
| I would be very very curious as to whom the '7' might be. There were very few Mustang aces shot down air to air in the ETO. Most aces shot down were downed by flak. My father's group had zero (aces) shot down air to air - two to flak It would be important to first establish that he shot down one - much less seven by matching units and times of his claims? Do you have the dates and locations, as well as the Staffel he was flying in? Regards, Bill |
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10-16-2009, 12:16 PM
| #4 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Manila, Philippines
Posts: 495
| I'm with Bill, most aces were shot down by triple-A. George Preddy, for instance, was killed by friendly-fire from an anti-aircraft battery while pursuing several German fighters over Belgium. AAA is the most likely reason that many aces were killed, since they had a lot of combat experience and could (possibly) get out of a deadly air-to-air situation with a foe.
__________________  "I'm sure as hell not a killer, but combat flying is like a game, and a guy likes to come out on top." -Maj. George E. Preddy, killed on Christmas Day, 1944 |
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10-16-2009, 12:35 PM
| #5 |
| the old Sage   Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,774
| he was an ace with JG 27 over the Afrika cont. battling P-40's and Hurri's. he had no chance ever of facing P-47's and P-51's as he was killed in 1942.
__________________ Rip it up ! |
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10-16-2009, 12:52 PM
| #6 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: perth
Posts: 109
| Otto Schulz flew in 2./JG 27 & 4./JG 27 the aces he shot down were all in North Africa 1941-1942. between 20 Oct & 30 Nov 1941 he shot down Pilot Officer Neville Duke .28 Sergeant Alan Cameron (6.5 victories) 15 dec 1941 Pilot Officer Geoffrey Ranger (5 victories) 15 February 1942 RAF Ernest “Imshi” Mason(15) 11 Jan 1942 Australian Flying Officer “Nicky” Barr (11 victories) 31 May 1942 Major Andrew Duncan (5.5 victories) 17 June 1942 claiming his 51st and last kill Flight Lieutenant Walter “Wally” Conrad (6.5 victories) same day he was killed by Canadian ace James "Stocky" Edwards here are listed kills for pilots of JG/27 hope its a bit more usefull. Jagdgeschwader 27 - JG 27 |
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10-16-2009, 01:33 PM
| #7 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 3,942
| Quote:
BTW - apologise that I mistook '51 victories' for Mustang (P-51), I now understand his claims totaled 51. | |
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10-16-2009, 02:00 PM
| #8 |
| the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 10,774
| well that is the problem Bill, even over the broad landscape of Afrika the air battles still were swirling around, Marseille even added to or had his confirmed kills added to by his wingman or another in his staffel, just the way it was. Priens histories explain further and even the times for many JG 27 pilots were the same or similar plus locations in same area and does leave a person scratching their heads in wonderment. I have been studying JG 27 for over 40 years and I still do not get where the placement of who shot down whom comes in or even the other JG's during the war. . . . . too many variables
__________________ Rip it up ! Last edited by Erich; 10-16-2009 at 02:02 PM. |
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10-16-2009, 03:14 PM
| #9 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: perth
Posts: 109
| excuse me im new to this so sorry if some of my questions sound stupid or childish so it would be highly unlikely that Otto Schulz shot most of these guys down? I always thought the Luftwaffe kept pretty close to accurate records with their pilots kills & loss (except when presenting it to Hermann Göring of course then they would modify the losses) |
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10-16-2009, 04:03 PM
| #10 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,361
| Hello Gepp I’d say, it possible that Otto Schulz shot down all those aces mentioned. He was a very skilful fighter pilots as shown on 15 Feb 42 when he shot down Imshi Mason and 3 others singlehandedly over his a/f. During the early part of WWII Germans’ claim accuracy was usually good/very good but it deteriorated later. And II/JG 27 had a case where one Schwarm fabricated claims and was caught red-handed. The only punishment was that the Schwarm was dispersed, none of its members lost any kills. Oh, the leader of the Schwarm was killed during a test flight soon after their cheat was exposed. Accident, suicide, murder? IMHO probably one of the first two, IMHO the leadership of JG 27 could have get rid of him without the loss of Bf 109 if it had wished so. Juha |
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10-16-2009, 06:13 PM
| #11 | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: oregon
Posts: 3,942
| Quote:
Big furballs like say Munich 24 April or Nov 26 Merseberg, Celle, Gardelegen,Hanover, Dummer Lake for JG 301 vs three or more separate Mustang Groups - unless first or last - seem almost impossible - or so far off the beaten path that you can narrow down to one or two people - max. You and I both have had a lot of fun piecing together Encounter Reports, bomber tracks, crash sites, etc to think this is a science. Having said that, North Africa seems to lend itself to slightly easier matching because the battles often were not big clashes. | |
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10-16-2009, 08:35 PM
| #12 |
| Senior Member  Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 613
| downed by flak. Quite a few were killed by bomber gunners who got in a lucky shot. When you fly dozens of combat missions the law of averages will eventually catch up with you. There are also lots of incidents like flying into the ground, hitting a factory chimney, mechanical malfuction causing the aircraft to catch fire etc. Last edited by davebender; 10-16-2009 at 08:40 PM. |
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10-16-2009, 11:32 PM
| #13 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: perth
Posts: 109
| hi Juha i do believe Otto Schulz shot down all, few things iv read about him tell the same story but im a rookie at this and still learning.I just wanted see if any Allied pilots topped that score or any Axis pilots scored higher. |
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10-17-2009, 07:26 PM
| #14 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,361
| Hello Gepp I don't recall exact info on the other shoot downs by Schulz but that of Duke, who had just some minutes before being shot down by Schulz got his 5th kill, a Fiat G.50, and that of Mason. So I have not opinion on the other 5 cases authenticity. I’d not be surprised if some of the LW high claimers got more than 7 enemy aces, in fact I’d be surprised if any of those 150+ kills pilots didn’t shot down over 7 enemy aces. Juha |
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10-18-2009, 02:02 PM
| #15 |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: perth
Posts: 109
| The only other pilot that i have found to come close is our own Australian ace Clive"killer"Caldwell with 5 Ace's all documented Leutnant Heinz Schmidt .173 victories at wars end Leutnant Werner Schröer 114 victories Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert,29 victories Hpt. Erbo Graf von Kageneck 67 victories Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 59 victories not to bad i think
__________________  I was lucky in my first dogfight, but it did give me a hell of a lot of self-confidence ... and a scaring, because I was also hit by many bullets |
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