Who started WW2?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

= Germany.

It takes quite the amount of you mentioned above to have virtually the whole world against you and still hold your ground - heck even advance at times...

In the end, it was the allies who had quality, quantity and leadership.

[Gnomey]

While the Allies may of won the war on the ground in particular it was due to quantity over quality. When you can loose 400 tanks in a battle and replace them the next day you are very unlikely to loose the war however good or bad you leadership is, sheer wait of numbers would over run the enemy. Both sides did have some quality pieces of equipment and some that weren't but the one thing the Allies did have in their favour was numbers, the Axis powers were never going to be able to build as much equipment as the Allied powers and so it was just a matter of time...

[syscom3]

The germans undoubtably had some great tanks and AFV's, but dont forget the US was beginning to deploy the Pershing tank, which was an equal for the German tanks.

Plus the US had excellent artillery.

In the end, the Allies were producing weapons of good quality in massive ammounts. The Germans werent.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

In the end, it was the allies who had quality, quantity and leadership.

No, in the end it was the Allies who had superior quantity, and nothing else.

Originally Posted by syscom3

The germans undoubtably had some great tanks and AFV's, but dont forget the US was beginning to deploy the Pershing tank, which was an equal for the German tanks.

The Pershing was a dud... Horribly unreliable and not even on par with the German Panther in terms of firepower. A Panther would make short work of a Pershing in a long range engagement.

Originally Posted by syscom3

Plus the US had excellent artillery.

That they did have, but so did the Germans, and the German artillery was miles ahead in terms of accuracy. A US G.I. commenting on the effectiveness of German artillery: "we were impressed with the accuracy of German field artillery. I've seen a 150-mm battery concentration hit a crossroads so consistently that engineers had to be called on to make it passable for a 2 1/2-ton truck. As far as thoroughness goes, the Germans get more out of a round than the devil himself gets on a lump of coal."

The Allies again however had the advantage of quantity.

Originally Posted by syscom3

In the end, the Allies were producing weapons of good quality in massive ammounts. The Germans werent

In the very end maybe, but even by 45 the Germans were still producing the best quality weapons, however the amount produced had gone down considerably.

[syscom3]

So the allies could not produce one weapon or weapon system that was superior to the Germans? Not one? Not even one general who could beat his counterpart?

Dont you think youre being a little bombastic about that assertion?

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

So the allies could not produce one weapon or weapon system that was superior to the Germans? Not one? Not even one general who could beat his counterpart?

Dont you think youre being a little bombastic about that assertion?

You mis-understood me syscom3. Ofcourse the Allies had material which was better, and vice versa, however quality wise the Germans just 'had' to be infront, its in their blood - Precision precision precision!

[Henk]

Yup, but it did cost them a lot, like the Tiger tank was huge, powerfull and heavy, but it lacked power and took very long to build. The Allies did not care, the had so many loosing a lot was nothing to them, but the Germans do know about Precision.

[plan_D]

The Allies won because they knew how to use what they had effectively. They relied on their production capacity rather than try to beat Germany at it's own game. We must not try and put down the Allied victory as a mere consequence of their size, the Axis was by no means a small force and the production capacity would have been enough to hold of it's opponents had it been handled properly. However, the Germans overcomplicated their production and products while the Allies simplified everything and increased their technology in the most important sector - production technology. The thought process of the Allies was simply - "How can we build more with what we have?" In the respect of total war, Albert Speer was probably the most valuble man in all Nazi Germany.

Both sides had effective equipment and leadership. But while the Germans thought precision, the Allies thought quantity. And it was the war winning weapon, a better thought process in the end.

[Soren]

Exactly.

[syscom3]

It was more than just that. The allies had plenty of weapons that had no counter parts in Germany.

The Heavy bomber
The Jeep
The 6X6 Truck
The Higgens Boat
The Amtrack
The DUKW
The C47/46/54 Transports
The atomic bomb
The long range fighters (P38, P51, P47N)

And when the US finally figured out it needed heavy tanks right at the end of the war, it was too late to put them into production. Id laike to see how the vaunted Panther and Tiger would have done against a squadron of Pershings. The odd's would have evened up in a hurry.

In some cases, the Germans were superior, some cases they were inferior, and in many cases, it was even odds.

[plan_D]

All of those you mention, syscom, bar the Atom Bomb were needed in a large quantity to achieve a success. The German weapons were able to perform missions in small numbers due to their superiority on the battlefield.

I have never implied that the Allies were inferior in every technical aspect. But it was our stream-lined large production that won us the war. The B-17s and B-24s while being superior to the German bombers, would not have been able to carry the war on their own in small numbers. Had the Germans produced heavy bombers, they probably would have been over-complicated and in small numbers due to this. And, most likely, would have failed to achieve the objective of strategic destruction.

You seem to think that the Allied ability to mass produce is an insult to the Allied victory. When it's certainly not. It took a lot of intelligence to turn the Allied nations into such large, efficient factories that they had become by 1945.

[Henk]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The Allies won because they knew how to use what they had effectively. They relied on their production capacity rather than try to beat Germany at it's own game. We must not try and put down the Allied victory as a mere consequence of their size, the Axis was by no means a small force and the production capacity would have been enough to hold of it's opponents had it been handled properly. However, the Germans overcomplicated their production and products while the Allies simplified everything and increased their technology in the most important sector - production technology. The thought process of the Allies was simply - "How can we build more with what we have?" In the respect of total war, Albert Speer was probably the most valuble man in all Nazi Germany.

Both sides had effective equipment and leadership. But while the Germans thought precision, the Allies thought quantity. And it was the war winning weapon, a better thought process in the end.

I also agree with that.

[Soren]

syscom3,

From your list above only the Heavy bomber, DUKW and C47 can be considered superior to its counterparts, the rest was more than matched by the Germans !

And about the Jeep... come on.. You seem to have forgotten about the German "Kubelwagen".

Fact is German equipment was in most cases superior in terms of effectiveness and quality pr. unit compared to allied equipment, but the sheer quantity of the allied equipment more than made up for that. Also what advantage is it to have superior equipment if haven't got something to fuel or load it with ??

[syscom3]

The Jeep and the 6X6 were superior to their german counterparts.

US fire control of the artillery were the best in the world.

Allied proximity shells were superior to the German ones.

The M1 garand was the best semi auto infantry rifle.

Allied logistics in every form were superior to the germans.

Except for the Ta-152, no German piston engined fighter was superior to its allied counterparts.

The list goes on and on. German had their great stuff, the allies theirs.

[Henk]

And the Fw-190, the Me-262, were in there own respects superior than the Allied aircraft. The kubelwagen was better than the Jeep in some aspects.