World War II American vs. Japanese ships

[davebender]

Lots of secondary sources including Wikipedia suggest Yorktown class CV airwing size was about 90. Sounds fishy to me, as if they are all just quoting each other. I'd like to see the official USN specifications for U.S.S. Yorktown.

Unlike Japan, the U.S. was not chronically short of aircraft and pilots. So if airwing size was 90 why didn't U.S.S. Yorktown have 90 aircraft prior to the Coral Sea battle?

[kettbo]

For surface action, the IJN Cruisers and Destroyers packed effective torpedoes and healthy firepower.
The USN 5"/38 were fast firing once the target was 'locked'
this weapon was also dual purpose. Couple that with proximity AAA ammo, very deadly
The IJN DDs in the later classes had dual purpose weapons
RADAR and RADAR FC gave the Allies tactical advantage
Signal intercepts allowed the Allies to position forces to counter IJN movements
Japanese merchant fleet was wiped-out as the Americans had their codes and the ships reported daily. No wasted patrols

[Juha]

Lots of secondary sources including Wikipedia suggest Yorktown class CV airwing size was about 90. Sounds fishy to me, as if they are all just quoting each other. I'd like to see the official USN specifications for U.S.S. Yorktown.

If you have seen Friedman's books you would know that he rely on orginal plans, specifications and design sketches.

Unlike Japan, the U.S. was not chronically short of aircraft and pilots. So if airwing size was 90 why didn't U.S.S. Yorktown have 90 aircraft prior to the Coral Sea battle?

Fairly common misunderstanding. That US had plenty of planes and pilots in 44-45 doesn't mean that it had plenty of them in 42. The lack of both was seen still in Guadalcanal, in New Guinea and in Tunisia and if you look Yorktown's AG in May 42 You see that its torpedo sqn was understreght, Big E operated 87 combat a/c in Aug 42.

Juha

[MacArther]

According to my source Enterprise had 3 Corsairs, 32 Hellcats, 23 Dauntless and 15 Avebgers = 73 a/c in June 44
Shokaku, Zuikaku and Taiho had then altogether 71 Zekes, 90 Judys, 10 Zeros and 54 Jills = 225 a/c, so Shokaku and Zuikaku probably both had 5-7 a/c more than Enterprise at that point

Out of curiosity, why would only 3 Corsairs be carried? I would have thought it would have been an even number of Corsairs.

[syscom3]

Out of curiosity, why would only 3 Corsairs be carried? I would have thought it would have been an even number of Corsairs.

Don't quote me, but the Corsairs might have been night fighter variants.

[parsifal]

USN survivability was due as much to changes in Damage Control procedures as the designs themselves. And whilst it is true that Essex class did not sink as a result of combat, one came perilously close, and was not returned to service after the war....effectively a write off....the USS Franklin.

The great success story for the USN were its contstant improvements in DC, and of course radar. If Lexington I had been hit in 1944 instead of 1942, it most likley would have survived.

As a rough generalization, the IJN carriers were better protected against torpedo attack, and less well protected against D/B attack.

USN was uniformly superior to IJN in AA, Radar, Damage Control and aircraft handling. USN lagged badly at the beginning of the war in night combat, torpedoes, and surface battle C&C. There was actually little difference in gunnery. Japan held the lead in amphibious warfare, but were overtaken by the USN by 1943. IJN was hopeless at ASW from start to finish.

Even though USN are rightly proud of their fleet destroyers ...Fletcher and Gearing classes in particular, as pure fleet destroyers, they are not as good as either the post '41 Yugumus or the Shimakaze classes. As Aa platforms, they were only better than the Akitsukis because of their radar fits.

Not possible really to compare USN DEs to their nearest Japanese equivalent....the matsu class. Japanese were were faster, and much more heavily armed.

Also, not possible to compare IJN Light Cruisers with USN CLs. IJN cruisers fulfilled the role of Leaders....part of the torpedo brigade, whilst USN CLs were part of the gunline....a kind of poor mans capital ship.

Heavy cruisers are an intersting category.....I tend to favour the IJN in this category though the Baltimores are potent ships

Intersting anomalies are the Japanese conversions....the Junyos, the Zuihos, and Chiyodas. I think overall, these ships, whilst lash ups, like the Independance class, were better value than the US conversions.

USN held the clear lead in CVE design and construction. They also held the lead in MTBs. I would also give the USN lead in submarine design, though the IJN failure in this regard is more doctrine related than equipment related. Often overlooked is the successes the IJN subs did enjoy....they sank over a million tons of allied shipping and enjoyed a few significant tactical victories as well.....like the sinking of the Wasp....

Dont know about Battleships. Yamatos were more heavily armed, and armoured but slower, less good at AA and lacked good radar. Really not sure

Battlecruisers I would give to the Japanese. Kirishima versus alaska would have been an interesting fight....

[Juha]

Out of curiosity, why would only 3 Corsairs be carried? I would have thought it would have been an even number of Corsairs.

I don't remember but I agree with syscom that probably they were a night fighter detachment.

Juha

[MacArther]

I don't remember but I agree with syscom that probably they were a night fighter detachment.

Juha

Fair enough, thanks for the input both of you.

[Juha]

Hello MacArther
checked, yes the Corsairs were F4U-2(N) Corsairs from VF(N)-101, there should have been 4 of them but probably one was lost before the beginning of Marianas Turkey Shoot.

Juha

[MacArther]

Hello MacArther
checked, yes the Corsairs were F4U-2(N) Corsairs from VF(N)-101, there should have been 4 of them but probably one was lost before the beginning of Marianas Turkey Shoot.

Juha

Interesting! Thanks for the information!

[vikingBerserker]

That was pretty interesting, good call syscom.

[barney]

Japan had ships and America had ships but only Japan had the type 93 torpedo.

[vikingBerserker]

I ahve to admit, the Long Lance was one of the better torpedoes in the way.

[oldcrowcv63]

USN Light cruisers were armed with 6 inch/47 cal rifles that were semi-auto loading with a firing rate of 8-10 rounds per minute that was triple their IJN counterparts which like virtually all naval rifles of 6 or 8 inch caliber were capable of only 3 or so rpm. USN Light cruisers had a total ordnance throw weight twice that of a heavy cruiser! At Cape Esperance and subsequent Solomon Island naval battles the IJN were shocked by USN Machine gun cruisers with an output of nearly 150 rpm collectively from all 5 turrets. With Radar direction and fire controlthe question is really how could the IJN ever beat the USN in any battle day or night? The answer lies clearly in their Long Lance torpedo.

USN carriers rated aircraft loads typically included disassembled aircraft hung from the hanger overhead. They could comfortably operate about 72 aircraft employing a permanent deck park and a hanger capacity about equal to a deck load launch (anywhere from 37 to 60 aircraft depending on ordnance load.

[oldcrowcv63]

During the Doolittle raid in April 1942, the Hornet kept an airwing of about 60 aircraft in her hanger but presumably many aircraft were disassembled and hung from the overhead. It took about 2 days to get the carrier ready to share ASW and search duries with the Enterprise. The Hornet launched a CAP contribution as soon as the B-25's had departed. (Lundstrom's First Team: my major source for almost any question involving CV ops in 1942.)