World War II American vs. Japanese ships

[Jerry W. Loper]

Comparing like ships with like ships, which ships in the following categories were generally better, American or Japanese? I'm thinking in terms of the best in its category vs. its enemy counterpart, like Iowa class battleship vs. Yamato class battleship, etc.

Battleship
Aircraft Carrier
Heavy Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Destroyer
Destroyer Escort & smaller
Submarine

[Juha]

I would say that USN light cruisers were clearly better that those of IJN and USN had better carriers, DEs, MTBs (PTs) and subs.

Juha

[Messy1]

I would say that USN light cruisers were clearly better that those of IJN and USN had better carriers, DEs, MTBs (PTs) and subs.

Juha

Definitely with the launch of the Essex class.

[davebender]

The USN didn't build any light cruisers after the early 1920s Omaha class.

Brooklyn class cruisers were officially called light cruisers but in fact were heavy cruisers armed with a multitude of 6" guns. Their Japanese counterparts were the Mogami class which were also heavy cruisers armed with a multitude of 6" guns. In both cases this was done to circumvent a poorly written naval treaty which defined light cruisers as having 6" main guns, no matter how large the ship was or how many guns it had.

Japan chose to replace Mogami class triple 6" gun turrets with twin 8" gun turrets during a 1939 rebuild. The USN could have done the same thing for the Brooklyn class but didn't. The USN could also have armed the 27 Cleveland class cruisers with 8 x 8" main guns rather then the historical 12 x 6" main guns.

[Arossihman]

Japanese carriers exhausted their smoke close to the waterline which made them a little more stealthier than ours but we could carry more planes and armament so to me our carriers gave us the edge in battle.

[davebender]

Was there a significant difference in hanger deck space?

I am under the impression the USN kept more aircraft parked on the flight deck to increase total aircraft carried. Japan could have made the same operational choice.

[tyrodtom]

American carrier aircraft's wings folded at much closer to the wing root than Japanese carrier aircraft usually, so they took up a lot less room . Also meant they could place more aircraft on the elevators, so they could move more aircraft, and quicker from the hanger deck to the flight deck.

I think USN carriers had larger aircraft elevators also.

[ToughOmbre]

Essex class carriers were better than any Japanese carrier for a number of reasons, even though they did not have armored flight decks. No Essex class carrier was lost in WWII, even though they were the main targets of the "Divine Wind".

And the Iowas would defeat the Yamatos one on one (radar fire control).

TO

[davebender]

A good idea but that doesn't change the amount of CV hanger deck space. What if Shokaku class CV air wings consisted of F4Fs, SBDs and TBDs? Could they carry as many aircraft as a Yorktown class CV?

[tyrodtom]

All other things being equal you could pack more American naval aircraft into a given space than Japanese, so yes, a Shokaku class could have carried more aircraft than they did.

Could they carry as many as a Yorktown class ? One would have to see which has more space availible for aircraft storage and tie down.

[davebender]

Shokaku class CV specifications. FY 1937.
34 knots. 9,700 miles @ 18 knots.

Magazines protected against 800kg bombs and 203mm shellfire.
Engine spaces protected against 250kg bombs and 127mm shellfire.

16 127mm AA guns. 8 twin mounts.
36 25mm AA guns. 12 triple mounts.

Two aircraft hangers. Three aircraft elevators.
84 aircraft capacity.
72 operational plus 12 reserve. The reserve aircraft were assembled and could be used.

Aviation Ordinance.
…..45 torpedoes.
…..90 800kg bombs.
…..306 250kg bombs.
…..540 60kg bombs.
…..496 tons of aviation gasoline.

Yorktown class CV specification.
(1st CV ordered 1933. 3rd and final CV ordered 1939.)
32.5 knots. 12,500 miles @ 15 knots.

Armor.
2.5” to 4” armor belt.
4” bulkheads,.
4” over steering gear.
Not sure how this compares to a Shokaku class CV. IMO Japanese armor protection specifications are more logically stated.

8 5” AA guns. All single mounts.
4 quad 1.1” AA guns.
24 .50cal machineguns.
24 20mm AA guns added during February 1942. All single mounts.
.....Inferior to a Shokaku class. Especially prior to the February 1942 upgrade.

Three aircraft elevators. Two flight deck and one hanger deck catapults.
.....Same number of aircraft elevators.

May 1942 CV-5 Air wing.
…..20 x F4F. VF-5.
…..19 x SBD. VB-5.
…..19 x SBD. VS-5.
…..13 x TBD. VT-5.
71 total. One less then CV Shokaku operational aircraft.

U.S.S. Enterprise carried 69 aircraft as of June 1944.

[tyrodtom]

You're a little off dave. The Yorktown may have carried 69 aircraft on June 44, she and the other two full size Yorktown class carriers could carry up to 96 aircraft, The larger Essex class could carry 80-100, depending on the individual ship. The Lexington up to 90, the Saratoga up to 80.

There were only two Shokaku class carriers built, and both were sunk in 44.

[Juha]

Dave
if you want to compare apples to apples, Shokaku's air component in early May 42 21 Zeros, 20 Vals and 21 Kates = 62 and Zuikaku's 21 Zeros, 21 Vals and 21 Kates = 63, so 9 and 8 less than that of Yorktown, In late Aug 42 Shokaku had 26 Zeros, 14 Vals, 18 Kates and 1 Judy = 59, Zuikaku had 27 Zeros, 27 Vals, 18 Kates = 72 Enterprise had 36 Wildcats, 36 Dauntlesses and 15 Avengers = 87

Juha

According to my source Enterprise had 3 Corsairs, 32 Hellcats, 23 Dauntless and 15 Avebgers = 73 a/c in June 44
Shokaku, Zuikaku and Taiho had then altogether 71 Zekes, 90 Judys, 10 Zeros and 54 Jills = 225 a/c, so Shokaku and Zuikaku probably both had 5-7 a/c more than Enterprise at that point

[davebender]

http://www.combinedfleet.com/kojinshavolume6.pdf
I'm quoting from official FY 1937 IJN specifications for Shokaku class aircraft carriers.

If someone has official specifications for Yorktown class aircraft carriers I'd like to see them. Otherwise all we have to go on are what they actually carried.

[Juha]

the designed a/c complement for Yorktown seems to have been 91 according to Norman Friedman's U.S. Aircraft Carriers

Juha