WWII artillery/anti tank gun....which was best?

[Soren]

Parsifal,



You're hardly ever going to be able to bring heavy artillery to bare in a direct fire mode against bunkers in the Jungle when you're advancing through.

The best guns for jungle warfare would be the German 7.5cm & 10.5cm LG40 and the 10.5cm LG42. Weighing in at 146 kg (7.5cm LG40), 389 kg (10.5cm LG40 & 10.5cm LG42), and with a range of 8.6 km to 8.9 km, being a capable AT weapon and great artillery pieces for both direct & indirect fire they were ideal for the role.

7.5cm LG40 alongside Brandenburger elites:


10.5cm LG42 in action on Crete:

[parsifal]

Ah getting there, but still not quite

According to TME-30-451 these weapons had the following characteristics

75-MM AIRBORNE RECOILLESS GUN (7.5 cm L. G. 40). (1) General description. The 7.5 cm L. G. 40, formerly known as the 7.5 cm L. G. 1 (L) Rh., needs no recoil mechanism. The breech is designed to eliminate recoil by emitting part of the propellent gases to the rear. Weight has been reduced considerably by constructing the carriage largely of light alloys, and the gun may be dropped by parachute in two wicker containers. The thin horizontal sliding breechblock is hand-operated. A Venturi tube extends from the rear of the breech which is bored to allow gases to escape. Light metal disk-type wheels are fitted to the mount.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber . . . . . 75 mm (2.95 inches).
Length of tube including breech ring and jet . . . . . 45.28 inches.
Weight in action . . . . . 321 pounds.
Maximum range (HE) . . . . . 8,900 yards (estimated).
Muzzle velocity (HE) . . . . . 1,238 feet per second.
Traverse with elevation -15° to +42° . . . . . 30° right and left.
Traverse with elevation -15° to +20° . . . . . 360° right and left.
Elevation with traverse of 360° . . . . . -15° to +20°.
Elevation with traverse of 30°, right and left . . . . . -15° to + 42°.
Traction . . . . . Airborne.


(3) Ammunition. HE, APCBC, and hollow-charge projectiles are fired. Projectile weights are: HE, 12 pounds, APCBC, 15 pounds; hollow charge, 10.13 pounds. The hollow-charge projectile will penetrate 50 mm at 30 degrees from normal.

b. 105-MM AIRBORNE RECOILLESS GUN (10.5 cm L. G. 40). (1) General description. The 10.5 cm L. G. 40, formerly known as the 10.5 cm L. G. 2 Kp., like the 7.5 cm L. G. 40, has a jet at the rear for the escape of part of the propellent gases instead of a recoil system. There is no breechblock. The firing mechanism is operated from the top of the breech ring and the striker hits a primer in the side of the cartridge. A modification of this weapon, the 10.5 cm L. G. 40/2, also exists.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber . . . . . 105 mm (4.14 inches).
Length of tube, including jet . . . . . 6 feet, 3 inches.
Weight in action . . . . . 855 pounds.
Maximum range . . . . . 8,694 yards.
Muzzle velocity (HE) . . . . . 1,099 feet per second.
Traverse . . . . . 80°.
Elevation . . . . . -15° to +40° 30'.
Traction . . . . . Airborne.


(3) Ammunition. HE and hollow-charge projectiles are fired. The base of the cartridge case has a circular Bakelite disk which is destroyed when the gun fires. Projectile weights are: HE, 32.63 pounds; hollow charge, 25.88 pounds.

c. 105-MM AIRBORNE RECOILLESS GUN (10.5 cm L. G. 42). (1) General description. The 10.5 cm L. G. 42, formerly known as the L. G. 2 Rh, differs from the 10.5 cm L. G. 40 in that it has a horizontal sliding breechblock bored for the passage of gases to the rear. The mount is made of fairly heavy tubing, and is designed for rapid dismantling and reassembly. Both air and pack transport are possible. A variation, known as 10.5 cm L. G. 42/1, differs in weight (1,191 pounds). It uses the same range tables.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber . . . . . 105 mm (4.14 inches).
Length of tube . . . . . 6 feet, 0.28 inch (including jet).
Weight in action . . . . . 1,217 pounds.
Maximum range (HE) . . . . . 8,695 yards.
Muzzle velocity . . . . . 1,099 feet per second.
Traverse . . . . . 360° at elevations up to 12°; 71° 15' at elevations over 12°.
Elevation . . . . . 15° to 42° 35'.
Traction . . . . . Airborne or pack.


(3) Ammunition. This weapon fires HE, hollow-charge, smoke, and HE incendiary projectiles. The projectile weights are: HE, 32.58 pounds: hollow charge, 26.62 and 27.17 pounds; smoke, 32.36 pounds; and HE incendiary, 33.52 pounds

Two of the three types could fire an AT round (or equivalent, but none of them were capable of High Angle fire. This means that in many situations they could be defeated by the terrain, and or the vegetation. However they are getting there....at least they are portable. The larger calibre weapon at 540-552 kg is lighter than the cut down 25 pounder at 1320 kg. The 75 mm recoilles gun is 321 lbs, is extremly light, so gets full marks on that score

The LG42 is only described as being pack transportable, so it might still be ata disadvantage in the Jungle, where the ability to be easily man portable is also a big advantage. This is my chief criticism of the 25 poinder, it is not easily man portable, and having to take animals into the jungle is still a problem

[parsifal]

This is very dangerous, and potentially misleading, but I will attempt to explain why I think the Japanese artillery was potentially dangerous in the Jungle. Typically (and thats the dangerous bit, because Japanese TO & E varied so much) a Japanese Bn might be expected to go into battle with 6 Bn guns, and about 4 Type 94s (or similar) attached. The Type 94s had the following characteristics

Caliber: 75 mm (2.95 in).
Barrel: 1.56 m (61.5 in) (20.8 calibers)
Rifling: 28 grooves, uniform right hand, 1 turn in 22.5 calibers
Range: (HE) 8,000 m (8,750 yd).
Elevation: +45º to -9º
Traverse: 40º
Weight: 544 kg
Barrel length: 1.56 m (L20.8 ) (5 ft 1.5 in).
Muzzle velocity: (HE) 355 m/s (1,165 ft/s).
Rate of fire:
15 rounds per minute for 2 minutes.
4 rounds per minute for 15 minutes.
2 rounds per minute for continuous firing.

Ammunition
High explosive
M94 6 kg with 0.8 kg of TNT and M88 impact or delay fuse.
"A" 6.46 kg with Picric acid and dinitro and M3 combination fuse.
"B" 6.6 kg with 0.66 kg of Picric acid and dinitro and M88 impact or delay fuse.
M90/97 6.18 kg with 0.42 kg of TNT and M88 impact or delay fuse.
M90 Pointed HE 6.35 kg with TNT and M88 impact or delay fuse.
Armor piercing
M95 APHE 6.2 kg with 0.45 kg of picric acid and dinitro M95 small AP base fuse.
Shrapnel
M90 Shrapnel 7 kg with 0.1 kg of Black powder with M5 combination fuse.
M38 Shrapnel 6.83 kg with 0.1 kg of black powder with M3 combination fuse.
Star
M90 Illumination 5.65 kg with M5 combination fuse.
Incendiary
M90 Incendiary 6.93 kg with black powder and M5 combination fuse.
Smoke
M90 Smoke 5.73 kg with 0.1 kg of picric acid and dinitro with M88 impact fuse

The Type 92 70mm Bn gun was much more the Infantry support gun (and there was nothing in the allied inventory to compare with that). It had the following characteristics:

It was used by infantry battalions both for direct fire and for high angle support fire. It could fire high explosive, armor piercing, and smoke rounds. Each infantry battalion included two type 92 guns; with a further support group of four guns often attached .

Specifications
Calibre: 70 mm (2.75 in)
Length of barrel: 0.622 m (24.5 in); i.e. 8.9 calibre lengths
Weight: in action 212 kg (468 lb)
Range : about 3745 m (4000 yards)
Muzzle velocity: 198 m/s (650 ft/s)
Weight of projectile: HE 3.795 kg (8.37 lb)
Rate of fire: 10 rounds/minute
Elevation: -10 to +60 degrees
Traverse: 90 degrees

By comparison the Q.F. 25-pr Gun Short (Aust) Mk 1 on Carriage Light (Aust) Mk 1, weighed 1300 kg and an effective range of 3-11000 yds, depending on th size of the propellant charge. It would be unusual for an Australian battalion to go into battle with more than 4 of these guns attached.

So, whilst the Japanese could go into battle with up to 10 artillery pieces in support, the Australians were limited to about half that number, however the Australian gun outranged its opponents, and carried a heavier shell. The Australians also would carry a larger number of mortars into battle. and if available the support from higher echelons was more usual

Moreover, the Allied gunnery was much more flexible than Japanese. Japanese artillery support was often poor because of a distinct lack of co-ordination, made worse by poor or non-existent communication between the troops at the front, and the artillery behind, Frequently Japanese artillery was reduced to just firing according to a predetermined fire plan, and their counter battery capability was very poor. On the other hand their abilities at deception and camouflage were legendary. But the biggest problem was supply. More often than not Japanese artillery could not reply at all because they lacked ammunition

[Haztoys]

Great info ...A little off thread here but and I've often wondered

How did the artillery troops deal with there hearing ..???..It most of been not good on there ears.. Sorry if its dumb thing to ask...

[Soren]

Parsifal ALL types of the LG40 & LG42 fired AT rounds, or more specifically: HE, HEAT, smoke & HEI. The APCBC projectile I am not aware of being used.

Are you relying on Lonesentry Parsifal ? If so remember its wartime intelligence papers, and thus far from always accurate, infact there are several mistakes in them (Which is also noted on the site). However it is mostly in terms of what was available and not.

PS: the LG42 does weigh 580 kg according to the German specs, which ofcourse are the most accurate.

[parsifal]

Yes I am, and will stand corrected.

My basic point is this, to try and get things back on thread. One should not necessarily assume that the biggest is always the bestest. If the Japanese Bn gun was deployed to the open country, it would be ridiculously outclassed by the big motherF*ckers you guys are so fond of. For the record, I believe the germans had the advantage in these areas, though American ordinance is still pretty good. My whole point in this sub-plot, was to try and mnake people stop and think about all the possible tasks that their dream artillery pieces might need to face.

Now, its time for me to admit something. I was recently looking at the burma campaign and came across evidence that suggested the Brits managed to manhandle some 5.5s into the jungle near Arakan. if theat is the case, with the artillery actually being deployed deep into the jungle, am genuinely shocked. I had never realized that the brits achieved that in WWII. The heaviest ordinance I was aware of going deep were the 25 pounders. How they would have gotten the 5.5s into the real jungle, I dont know, if anyone does know, would not mind some instruction

[Glider]

Its a bit of a guess but the Matador truck probably had more than a little to do with is. It was a 4 x 4 truck that was able to go almost anywhere and was the standard tractor for the 5.5in.

[parsifal]

Great info ...A little off thread here but and I've often wondered

How did the artillery troops deal with there hearing ..???..It most of been not good on there ears.. Sorry if its dumb thing to ask...

Its not so much the roar of the guns, as the muzzle blast effect. You can generally stop your ear drums from hurting simply by plugging your ears. Nowadays artillery crews ar generally issued with noise muffs, to protect hearing

[JugBR]

there are artilherys and artilherys... and theres dora

[Haztoys]

Its not so much the roar of the guns, as the muzzle blast effect. You can generally stop your ear drums from hurting simply by plugging your ears. Nowadays artillery crews ar generally issued with noise muffs, to protect hearing

thanks for the info ...Have been around some guns and artillery that was small and could feel it in your chest ... The big stuff must be nuts..

[starling]

the british/indian/commonwealth engineers,were very adept at doing the seemingly impossible.i cannot recall which book it was in,but i do remember reading about 4.5in and 5.5in arty deep into the arakan.yours,starling.

[starling]

getting back 2 lucky 13 origional question.i dont know about the rest of you,but when i see german guns being pulled by horses,especially during the falaise gap,piled up along the roadside,it upsets me.rather like when horses fall at the grand national,i always check the horses get up,without a thought for the jockey.yours,starling. .

[stug3]

A German artillery crew in Tunisia 1943

[vinnye]

I would go for AT - 17 pdr - enough firepower to do the job , small enough to hide and move about.
For artillery - 105 / 155 or 25 pdr all would get the job done.

[parsifal]

weve come full circle. Most field artillery is just fine in most terrain, but some terrain types dont allow the luxury of heavy, hard to move, single purpopse guns. 25pdr was as mobile and versatile as any gun of the GP variety, but struggled in difficult country like mountainous jungles of New Guinea. here, other issues dictated what was satisfacory other than weight of shell or range. in the jungle, the apparently obsolete 70mm gun howitzer or 75mm mountain gun of the IJA were aas good as any other, perhaps with the exceptions of the 'baby" 25mm or the US 75mmpack howitzer. these however, came later, and were still on the heavy side compared to the Japanese weapons.